Car accident damage question...

SlowToady · 10-09-2008, 08:40 AM

So a few weeks ago I got into a fender bender; the lady behind me tried to accelerate and switch lanes whilst I was stopped behind 2 other cars, and she hit me in the left rear. At first glance damage appears to only be limited to the rear bumper. However, upon closer inspection, the driver side door gap, between the fender edge and front edge of the driver's door, has been closed significantly. Prior to the accident, the driver and passenger side doors had the same gap width; one thing I hate is mis-aligned body panel gaps, so I had the top dude at the body shop I worked at get them perfect. So, I know what it used to look like.

I'm taking it in for an estimate today. I'm wondering, basically, what would have caused my door gap to close up like that, besides the frame being tweaked on the left hand side. Since the damage is in the rear, frame rack time is $$$, and I'm young, I'm predisposed to thinking that if I ask the adjuster about it he's just going to ignore me on it.

Pics, for your amusement.

Driver door

Passenger Door

Rick Lee · Rick Lee's Garage

Didn't the lady's insurance have to approve it all before work was done?

SlowToady · 10-09-2008, 10:03 AM

Just had it checked out by the local VW dealer. Estimate came in just a tick under $1,500, but I know it's going higher once they start working on it. Mentioned the door gap issue to the estimator, just to have some record that I raised the issue in case there is a problem later. I understand, obviously, he couldn't write anything for it, but he said he'd make a note for the body guys to check it out and see if anything is amiss. Couldn't really ask for anything more at this point.

Now I just have to wait for the insurance company to settle it so I can get it fixed. Yay, what fun....

SlowToady · 10-09-2008, 10:04 AM

Original post is worded poorly. No work done yet, just had the estimate written. Hopefully they'll approve it within the next week (or so) so I can get it fixed. It looks horrible...I hate being that guy driving around with a busted up car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Didn't the lady's insurance have to approve it all before work was done?

KevinP73 · 10-09-2008, 10:34 AM

From your description of the incident and the pictures of the damage I can't see any way that the door gap issue is at all related to the lady bumping you from the rear. You may get lucky enough to have the insurance company re-align the door but I wouldn't try selling them on there being frame damage.
Just my opinion YMMV

Heel n Toe · 10-09-2008, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowToady

Since the damage is in the rear, frame rack time is $$$, and I'm young, I'm predisposed to thinking that if I ask the adjuster about it he's just going to ignore me on it.

Not sure that your age or the cost of frame rack time has anything to do with anything. This woman hit you, so her adjuster is obligated to make sure your car is fixed no matter what.

I would say that you should request that an alignment shop that you trust be in charge of making sure your car is in perfect alignment before any body work is done.

Heel n Toe · 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinP73

From your description of the incident and the pictures of the damage I can't see any way that the door gap issue is at all related to the lady bumping you from the rear. You may get lucky enough to have the insurance company re-align the door but I wouldn't try selling them on there being frame damage.
Just my opinion YMMV

Well, he said...

"Prior to the accident, the driver and passenger side doors had the same gap width; one thing I hate is mis-aligned body panel gaps, so I had the top dude at the body shop I worked at get them perfect. So, I know what it used to look like."

...so I'd say he's got a beef... especially since this is the gap at the front edge of the driver door... that says frame tweaking to me, but maybe not. At the very least, he should get this "top dude at the body shop I worked at" to talk to the adjuster.

SlowToady · 10-09-2008, 10:46 AM

I wouldn't try and talk them into it if it's not there; not only would that be unethical, it would also be Insurance Fraud. Not my cup of tea.

That's why I'm curious if there is another way that panel gaps can change like that, due to an accident, that doesn't entail a tweaked frame.

Keep in mind that I ordered parts and dealt with customers at the body shop, therefore my knowledge on these matters, while deeper than some peoples, isn't as deep as many people here. Or any average bodyman.

Thanks guys.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinP73

From your description of the incident and the pictures of the damage I can't see any way that the door gap issue is at all related to the lady bumping you from the rear. You may get lucky enough to have the insurance company re-align the door but I wouldn't try selling them on there being frame damage.
Just my opinion YMMV

KevinP73 · 10-09-2008, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heel n Toe

Well, he said...

"Prior to the accident, the driver and passenger side doors had the same gap width; one thing I hate is mis-aligned body panel gaps, so I had the top dude at the body shop I worked at get them perfect. So, I know what it used to look like."

...so I'd say he's got a beef... especially since this is the gap at the front edge of the driver door... that says frame tweaking to me, but maybe not. At the very least, he should get this "top dude at the body shop I worked at" to talk to the adjuster.

I think you'd be amazed at how many times in my 30+year career I've heard the phrase "It wasn't like that before the accident". There just any way that a glancing blow from a car doing under 30mph is going to cause damage that far forward. Plus there is NO exterior damage between the point of impact and the leading edge of the door. The energy that would have to be present to close that gap does not "submerge" at the point of impact and then suddenly "surface" at a point further dowm stream.
More likely he just had never been critical of the gap untill the accident drew his attention to it.

SlowToady · 12:38 PM

Actually, I don't think I would be. I've you hear it with the same frequency that I hear/heard it, then you've heard it a great deal of times.

I was going to wait until someone else responded, but frankly, I'm a bit annoyed at your suggestion that I'm lying about the whole thing, and that I'm trying to con the insurance company and the body shop into doing the repair. And, by the way, I wasn't aware you were in the vehicle that struck mine. You must have been, since you apparently know how fast she was traveling. Hint: you're wrong.

Now, then, let's examine this a bit more closely. Your contention is that, I, someone with body shop experience (although not as much as you have) and a fond love of motor vehicles, just "never noticed" the gap before. In the 3 years that I've owned it. Which, for the sake of argument, say I grant you, leaves a few other loose ends. Namely, being that Jose, who has been wrenching on cars for 40+ years, and is good enough to make about 6 figures doing it, doesn't know how to adjust a door. Quite simply, I find that hard to believe, given a few conditions. 1) I helped him. 2) He is quite talented; I've watched him cut Explorer's down the middle, back to mid front (just before driver cabin), remove that whole section, and replace it (body, no chassis). He's good. This is routine work for him. 3) I am/was his boss, and was so at the time we fixed my door gap. Therefore, I find it highly unlikely that I "didn't notice" the gap until now, after the accident.

Now then, let's get back to my granting you the possibility that I just didn't notice it. Logically, it doesn't make sense for me to browbeat the insurance company and body shop into fixing it. To get them to do that, I have to call, hassle, call, hassle, blah blah and convince them that it is loss related. Which is a gigantic waste of my time. Were it not loss related, and simply the gap was off, wouldn't it make MORE sense for me to save my time and energy calling them, and just wait until I was back at the body shop and GET PAID TO HAVE IT FIXED? Yep, get paid to have it fixed. Sort of like when I had it fixed the first time. Just pull the car around back to the body shop and tell Jose to align those panels, while we're both on the clock. That's not even addressing that I'd not only be compromising my personal ethics, but also breaking Fraud laws. And for what, 15 minutes of someone else's time to fix a door gap? For $6 worth of the body shop's time?

I seriously dislike your accusation that I'm attempting to engage in Insurance Fraud over a simple matter of door gaps, and that I'm completely lying about having had Jose, at the shop whereby I'm employed, adjust it previously.

You state that there is "simply no way" the accident could have done it, yet fail to offer any other suggestion other than that I'm lying about it. For grins, I called the body shop I work/worked at, and asked the owner, who happens to be a good friend and hunting partner of mine. He offered the suggestion that possibility the bolts and sheet metal just worked slightly loose during the course of normal operation, from all the bumps and stresses, and that the energy transfer from the accident might have simply caused the shift I'm seeing. He said it's stupid, and probably shouldn't happen, but it does and he's seen it numerous times, even from hitting large bumps/potholes.

This suggestion I find quite a bit more plausible than your baseless assumption that I'm lying about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KevinP73

I think you'd be amazed at how many times in my 30+year career I've heard the phrase "It wasn't like that before the accident". There just any way that a glancing blow from a car doing under 30mph is going to cause damage that far forward. Plus there is NO exterior damage between the point of impact and the leading edge of the door. The energy that would have to be present to close that gap does not "submerge" at the point of impact and then suddenly "surface" at a point further dowm stream.
More likely he just had never been critical of the gap untill the accident drew his attention to it.

Steve Carlton · 10-09-2008, 12:47 PM

Does that car even have a frame, or is it a unibody?

SlowToady · 10-09-2008, 12:51 PM

Unibody, pardon my misnomer. I'll make appropriate post edits later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Carlton

Does that car even have a frame, or is it a unibody?

KevinP73 · 02:55 PM

Damn Skippy why don't you grab a pantie liner and slide back from the keyboard for a moment.
No where did I say you were "lying" or trying to defraud the insurance company. In fact I'm suggesting that your making an honest mistake. There are a lot of things that may cause the door gap to be off but not knowing the history of the car I don't have the time or inclination to explore them all. I was giving you my OPINION based on your description of the event supported by your pictures as to whether or not this event was responsible for the misalignment. If you read your last post carefully you even stated that your friend/hunting partner/body shop owner states that this misalignment can be the result of "hitting large bumps/potholes". Do you think there is a chance that maybe one day since you had the door gap adjusted perfectly( repaired from a prior collision!), perhaps out on a "spirited" drive you hit a big bump and didn't notice it (theres that insinuation again)?

RWebb · RWebb's Garage

the real issue is proof - do you have photos of the car before the hit showing no gap?

if not, you'll have to sue and will likely lose

KevinP73 · 10-10-2008, 07:07 AM

Where'd Skippy go? Must be out measuring gaps on his car!

SlowToady · 10-12-2008, 08:23 PM

RWebb, nope, no pictures. At least not of the outside of the car, which is what would matter....

Kevin, your suggestion didn't come off as you implying an "honest mistake" especially after I repeated several times that I had it professionally adjusted. It sounded like...drum roll...you just thought I was FOS.

I don't have to read my own post carefully to know what it says, I wrote it

Thanks for the suggestion though. I called the body shop owner AFTER I posted this thread, not before, and specifically after your response and before my long winded rant. If you'll read my last post carefully, you'd notice that I said that the compression of the gaps could have been caused, by the energy transfer of the accident, due to bolts/sheet metal that worked itself loose during the course of normal operation. This is in contrast to your statement that the bumps/potholes were the direct and only cause of the gap compression. Do you understand that difference? I know reading comprehension isn't everyone's forte.

And, by the way, you didn't offer much as an opinion besides "I don't think that accident could have done it." You, unlike my boss, never mentioned that the bolts/sheet metal could have simply worked loose; which is exactly the type of other reasonable explanation I was looking for.

As for where I was, I generally have an active life outside of this BBS. Specifically, I was studying Differential Equations, drinking beer/whiskey and loosing money at the horse track. Hell of a weekend.

rick-l · 10-12-2008, 08:46 PM

How far did the car move after impact? If it hit at an angle would that make a differnce?

Did the body shop say they could take care of it by adjusting the door? If they ignored it did you try a second opinion?

SlowToady · 10-12-2008, 09:00 PM

I can't be very sure at all how far it moved...I was watching in the rear view and saw the other car coming, so I stood on the brake pedal (so I wouldn't hit the car in front of me), and braced for impact. I'm just not sure.

The other car did hit me at an angle, it wasn't straight on. To give a visual, her right head lamp area (figure, if you're looking front on at the car that hit mine, the damage area is the area LEFT of the hood crest) impacted the area on my car shown in the (crappy) photographs.

I'm taking the car in tomorrow-ish to get fixed; the ladies insurance company called the day after I got the estimate to tell me they approved it.

Estimator I talked to at the shop said they'd check it out, but we'll see. I'm going to go in after I drop it off and ask that it be measured, and to have a copy of the measurements. I don't think that's too much to ask, but I suppose I'll find out.

The body shop I took it to is part of the local VW dealer, so on one hand I think they'd be able to fix it pretty well, and on the other hand, well, the word "stealership" comes to mind.

Any opinions...?

Quote:

Originally Posted by rick-l

How far did the car move after impact? If it hit at an angle would that make a differnce?

Did the body shop say they could take care of it by adjusting the door? If they ignored it did you try a second opinion?

Porsche_monkey · 10-13-2008, 07:53 AM

Slowtoady: I am going to side with KevinP73, I think you inferred a lot into his response that probably wasn't there. And my first thought was along the lines of 'I doubt A caused B', but let's move on.

Assuming your car has not been subjected to previous uni-body damage, ask the body shop to put the car on the frame machine and confirm that the factory reference points are still within the factory specified tolerance, ask to watch, or get a print-out of the results. If it is 'in spec', fix the doors yourself and move on. If it is out of spec then the damage must be from the hit your car took, they need to fix the uni-body and the doors.

Nobody likes to get hit and go through this crap, but come on, it's a Golf, and it's several years old. It's not the end of the world, I sort of think you are over-reacting. Which I might do if someone hit my daily driver.

KevinP73 · 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SlowToady

It sounded like...drum roll...you just thought I was FOS.

.

I do. But thats how honest mistakes begin, from people talking 'bout stuff they don't have a clue about.
Now if you'll 'scuse me, I have to go measure the gaps on my truck in case I ever get hit (again).
Later Skippy