New to reloading
 

My buddy just gave me a Lyman turret press and a few good books. I'm going to reload .45 ACP, .223 and .308 and I bought some supplies this past weekend at a gun show, but I still need a digital scale and powder loader before I can start. I have Lee carbide dies, powder, primers, brass cases and bullets and this will be my new winter hobby. My plan is to eventually stock a few thousand rounds in the calibers I shoot. I'm looking forward to learning and mastering the process so I can make some decent hand loads. I have a Colt AR15 and my BIL has an AR10 in .308 and my father has a bunch of .45's, so that what I will start with. I don't know if I'll reload 9mm, I'll have to work out the numbers and see if it's worth it.

I'd start with the .45, they're easy to reload for. While handloading saves you some money, I think the real advantage of handloading is that you can "work up a load" that makes your particular gun shoot more accurately or do whatever you need it to do.
-Chris

I have both digital and beam scales, for most of my use the beam works better. Perhaps similar to a digital speedometer vs dial, easier to tell at a glance if it's correct without having to mentally analyze the digits.
Jim

Welcome to the hobby. It's almost as much fun as shooting. The best thing for a beginner is to pick up a reloading manual, like from Speer, Sierra, Hornady, etc. There's a ton of good info there about procedures, safety, and load data. Assume nothing, and always double check your work. Darwin keeps a close eye on reloaders who don't pay attention.

Post up any specific questions and I'll help out if possible.

I have a beam scale and a digital, and use the beam far more than the digital. The RCBS 505 scale is hard to beat.

John

I am psycho about reloading.

I spent six hours on Saturday reloading 100 round of 9mm and another 100 of .223. Why did it take six hours? Because I measure each and every grain of powder with my digital scale and I make sure the seating depth of every single bullet is very close to the same.

I also do 12 gauge and .30-30.

I think reloading may become my "menopause" hobby in 20 years... (See other thread.)

edit: I should get a turret press, might speed things up. (I have a single-stage press.)

This is a slippery slope in it self. I it is a great hobby for those cold nights.Save some money too, but not before spending some.
If you are a accuracy seeker buy a automatic scale. I hand weighed powder charges for 15 years before I had a RCBS Chargemaster that is the only way to go. Saves time is accurate makes the hobby 2X more enjoyable. All my rifle loads are for bench or varmint shooting, accuracy is critical. 7 rifle cartridges 2 Pistol cartridges.The pistol charges can be hand thrown or done on a progressive type set up. Be safety minded, and force yourself to be organized. You will really enjoy it. Try a automatic scale once you have tried one there is no turning back.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1226335256.jpg

I'd love one of those, but I'm running out of room for reloading equipment.

I have two infinitely-adjustable Lee powder measures. I have one filled with Red Dot and the other with BL-C(2). The Red Dot is pre-set of 4.3 grains (9mm) and the BL-C(2) is pre-set for 25.5 grains (.223). It works well-enough.

Best and most time saving reloading tool I ever bought. If you go with just a scale though, go with Dillon.

It's a popular myth indeed that "reloading saves money". I don't know anyone yet that actually saves money on their shooting because they reload. Why? Because we all shoot so much more because we reload. Reloading has a way of turning casual shooters into guys like me. You will find ever more things to try, ever more excuses to go shoot, and even excuses to buy more guns. Just so you can explore reloading for them.

Reloading has to be just about one of the best hobbies going for the incurable tinkerer. There are just so many cool little tools, endless combinations of components in any given caliber, countless little sub-hobbies (bullet casting is my favorite), that a guy can spend a lifetime and not get to all of it. So have fun, and keep us posted.

Jeff,
You say that like it's a BAD thing :D

Guys,
Thanks for the advice, it's very timely as I'm in the "hardware acquisition mode" now. I'm trying to get everything setup so that I can start reloading .45ACP and .223 on 11/23. I still need a scalre (I like the digital one pictured here) and a powder loader. I've got the components, books, turret press and tumbler. I used to brew my own beer, and I'm seeing the similarities with these two "hobbies". I want to get good gear so it's enjoyable and productive!

I bought all of the gear I need (ha ha!) from midwayusa.com and I'm setting up the workbench and area in the basement for my new hobby. I'm having trouble finding CCI small pistol and rifle primers and .223 brass. Seems like the reloaders are buying everything up! I'm excited about this new hobby since it will help me pass the cold, dark MI winters. I plan to reload all winter and shoot pistol at the local indoor range where I'm a member, then shoot rifle outdoors when the weather gets warm. I'd like to have 10,000 rounds of each caliber I shoot (9mm, .223, .45ACP and .380). There is much to learn, but I'm ready. I used to brew my own beer and in 2 years, I brewed 100 6gallon batches (all grain), which shows how focused I can be...

Well, I've got all of my gear, most of it purchased from midwayusa.com and bullets, powder and primers purchased at the local Gander Mtn. I've got my bench assembled and I'm ready to start reloading 45ACP, .223 and 9mm next weekend. My buddy Tab Tanner is coming over next Saturday to get me started, so I'm prepping (cleaning brass, etc...) so we can make at least 500 rounds next weekend. Supplies have been hard to find, I still haven't been able to find 9mm bullets. I did get my hands on a virtually unlimited supply of lead, so I can cast my own bullets...

I just made 150 cartridges for my AR15! Tab Tanner and my BIL came over today and Tab got us started. Seems like it will be a lot of fun!

I did 20 for my .30-30 today. I always do a small batch when I am dialing in my dies.

So far I reload 9mm, .223, and .30-30.

Too bad Ill have to buy all new equipment for .50 BMG.

I've just finished making 250 rounds of .223 Tab set everything up and showed me how to do it, so I'll continue tomorrow. My goal is to complete 1000 rounds of .223, 500 rounds of .45ACP and 1000 rounds of 9mm by the end of the year...

That's a lot for one day and an ambitious goal for a beginner.

I don't make more than 50 of anything until I have a chance to shoot it.

200 in a day is about my limit of concentration. (100 for shotgun.) Be careful, mistakes in this hobby can be deadly. Make sure you follow procedures that allow you to spot mistakes immediately.

Umm... O.k., let me get this straight - you just reloaded 150 rounds of .223 ammo. What did you do to work up the load you settled on for this? Are you cognizant of the need for, and the techniques used to work up a safe load in any given caliber for any given firearm in that caliber? I'm not even sure where to start on this one. Do you even understand how many steps you just skipped? Important steps; important to your safety and that of anyone who happens to be nearby when you first fire one of these new reloads.

Every loading manual will list "starting" and "maximum" loads for a given bullet weight and brand, powder type, case make, primer, and overall length. Those loads are listed with the caveat that they are safe in the test firearm or test barrel only, and maximums must be approached with caution in any other firearm. As in increasing the load one grain at a time, starting with the minimum, all the while monitoring the load for signs of excessive pressure in the firearm for which it is intended. We typically load up five at the starting powder charge, five more one grain of powder up, five more with yet another grain of powder, and so on.

Each fired case is recorded as to charge, and inspected for signs of excessive pressure. At the very first fired case that shows signs of excessive pressure, we stop. And go back one grain of powder below that. And, if there are any left with that charge (or increased charges) those bullets get pulled and those loads are not fired. I simply cannot overstate the importance of this procedure.

Changing any one component can have a drastic affect on pressure. A given "minimum" load can be increased to greatly over a safe maximum with a change in any one component. Different brands of bullets, even of the same weight, will dramatically change pressures. Changing brands of primers in a proven safe load can raise pressures to unacceptable levels. Cases vary in weight by manufacturer, and by lots from a given manufacturer. More weight means less internal volume - the outside dimensions are fixed, so the extra brass has to reduce powder capacity. This reduced capacity translates into increased pressures for a given powder charge.

I understand the desire to load as many as possible so you can just go have some fun shooting them. That is all well and good, after the preliminary steps necessary to working up a safe load have been taken. You cannot skip those steps. You cannot simply pick a load and go for it, without the requisite testing. You may get lucky and get away with this haphazard approach. Once, maybe twice, but eventually it will bite you. And it bites hard... I have seen the results of overloaded centerfire ammunition. Blown up actions, blown up pistols and revolvers, and some very unlucky (careless) reloaders who have lost their vision to this, lost digits or whole hands, and have even been killed by bolts flying back through their heads. This is nothing to mess with.

I hate to be a wet blanket in all of this. I just want to see you remain safe while diving into this wonderful new hobby. So, unless your 150 rounds are a rock bottom, starting load, with the same components used as those shown in a reputable manual, I would stop right there and not shoot any of them. They may indeed be safe, but just chambering one and pulling the trigger is no way to find out. Make up some batches of test loads using the same components. Start with a listed starting load for your bullets, cases, powder, and primers. Make up five of those, then five more with one more grain of powder, and so on until you reach your combination used in your 150 loaded rounds. If each incremental step working up to that load proves safe, and only if they prove safe, you should be good to go with what you have. I would not shoot any of them until you have taken the time to do this. Please.

Jeff,
I understand your concerns and they are completely legitimate, but there is a lot of info I didn't include in my post such as:

- Tab Tanner, who has many years of reloading under his belt, came over and set my reloading rig up

- We used the Lee manual to determine the proper powder load
- brass was previously resized, cleaned and lengths checked
- The exact same brass, powder and bullets were used for this initial session
- Powder weight and bullet length was checked during the entire session
- No alcohol, interruptions, distractions or other activity was going on during the reloading session, I was concentrating on the process and on each step the whole time
- No changes were made once the dies and measurements were dialed in

Your post included many, many good points and safety is the most important thing to remember, I believe that 100%! I had purchased 1000 brass Winchester unfired, unprimered cases, so I was starting at a point where I could produce that number of cartridges and much prep work had been done earlier in the week. I don't just want to make cartridges fast, I want to make them good, safe and consistent, so that's really my goal. I can see how my previous post would tend to make me look like I was skipping steps or being careless, and I'm certain y not. I'm glad there are guys like you out there to help people understand the ramifications of this hobby and how important it is to start with good data and to measure, check, remeasure, etc... along the way!

BTW, I bought a Lyman Challenger 1500XL digital scale and a digital caliper for precise measurements. I use a Lyman T55 powder measurer and I check every 5th load to confirm the correct amount of powder is being placed into the shells. I'm resizing the reused brass I have with the Lee dies and the pistol dies are carbide. The Lyman turret press is functioning correctly and I use the Lyman hand prime to prime each case. I'm using the powder and primers recommended by Tab and that he has significant experience with. We both have AR15's and the loads I'm making are well within spec, I'm not into "experimenting", I just want to make reliable rounds for target shooting. All of the used brass I have came from the same gun I'm reloading for, but I do a full length case resize for each cartridge. I'm good at following instructions and paying attention. I used to brew my own beer and I brewed 100 batches of all-grain beer in 2 years without a single contaminated batch, which is a pretty good achievement. Home brewing and reloading are very similar, except that in reloading there is even less margin for error and errors can hurt or kill someone, which is always 1st and foremost in my mind while I'm working.

Sounds like you are on the right track, Art. Just one thing - that Lyman manual undoubtedly lists starting and maximum loads. Did you start with the starting load?

The reason I ask is that no manual can give you a "proper load" for your rifle. Rifles vary too much in internal tolerances. A SAAMI minimum dimension chamber will produce far more pressure with a given load. A very short throat will increase pressures, while a very long one will reduce pressures. A bore diameter towards the small side will increase pressures, and a bore on the large side will reduce pressures. There are such a plethora of possible combinations of these factors that every rifle is well and truly a case unto itself. Because of this, the manuals will give you a range of powder charges in which to work. No one charge is "proper" in all rifles. You have to determine what is proper in your own rifle. There are no shortcuts for this; you simply have to work up the load in the rifle(s) in which it will be fired.

If you started with the "starting load", you should be fine. Safety wise, anyway. The starting loads listed are, however, usually not optimum as far as accuracy and they will certainly be quite low on the velocity end. This is the real challenge of handloading - optimizing a load for a given gun. It is likely that a load somewhere between the "starting" and "maximum" will give you the best accuracy. The starting load seldom does, but the maximum often does. More often than not, as a matter of fact.

So, once you have established the safe maximum for your particular firearm, the real fun begins. Methodically trying to shrink those group sizes. Start by varying the powder charge in a proven combination. The .223, with its small powder capacity, responds to changes of as little as half a grain. Then go to a different bullet (returning to the "starting" load once again and working up from there) and see how the rifle responds. Then maybe different powders. In the end, a primer change may just provide that last little improvement. Again, always return to the "starting" load when changing any components.

In order of importance, as far as accuracy in any given rifle, I have found the following to pretty much hold true. The bullet selection is most important. If your rifle does not like a particualr bullet, no combination of powder, case, and primer will make it shoot. Next is powder selection. Changing powders, while maintaining the same velocity levels, can have a dramatic affect on accuracy. As an aside, powder selection in gas guns is even more important, precisely because of operating pressures seen at the gas port. Too high is hard on the rifle, while too low may render it less than reliable. Certain powders put more or less carbon soot into the gas sustem as well. Anyway, next in line is primers. You won't see a huge change, but if you are looking at that last little reduction in group size, or are getting unexplained "flyers", a primer change might help.

Anyway, welcome to a wonderful hobby. Again, it sounds like you are on the right track. Sorry if I come off a bit overbearing on some of this. I just want to see you stay safe and have fun. Let us know how your first lot shoots.

Jeff,

Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge! If I do not learn from others, I'm ignorant and dangerous!! We started with the "middle" load between "starting and maximum" and used numbers that Tab has used successfully in his AR15. I'm very carefully documenting what I'm doing and will test these rounds at the range very soon. I'm using very good components and not taking any chances. I approach this new hobby the same way I've approached all of my hobbies (homebrewing, Porsche repair and maintenance, etc...) very cautiously and with the advice of very wise people. I do not take shortcuts or skimp on my gear or components. Anyway, thanks again, I really appreciate your advice!!

So what load did you wind up with? I don't own a .223, but my oldest son does, a Remington 700 varmint rifle with a 26" heavy barrel, matte finish, fiberglass benchrest style stock. Its favorite load consists of the 50 grain Hornady V-Max over 26 grains of H4895 in a Remington case with a CCI small rifle primer. Velocities are on the low side, as the "maximum load" of H4895 is limited by case capacity rather than working pressures, but it sure does shoot. I think we are getting about 3200 fps. Groups at 200 yards run consistantly under 3/4".

A shooting buddy of mine gave my kid 1,000 of the V-Maxes to "get him started" when I first gave him the rifle for Christmas (he was 13). The rifle has the old, slow 14" twist, so it is restricted to the lighter bullets. We have long since used those up (he will be 21 this New Year's eve), but it liked them so much we decided to just keep using them. Funny, though, my .220 Swift will not shoot them. It prefers the 60 grain V-Max. You just never know...

Jeff,
So far, I'm loading Hornady VMax 55gr in Winchester cases with 20.2gr of 4198 powder and Winchester small rifle primers. I also have Speer 55gr bullets in bulk and Hornady VMax 60gr that I haven't loaded yet. Powder, bullets and primers have been hard to find, seems they are "out of stock" everywhere. I have Winchester, Federal and CCI primers for small rifle, small pistol and large pistol. I have a Sig P239 in 9mm, Beretta 92FS in 9mm and my father is giving me a .45 so I can test my reloads. My Colt Sporter II AR15 in .223 is bone stock and shoots very well. I have to find a range that will let me shoot my own rifle rounds as the range I belong to only allows their boxed Federal .223 to be used at the range.

I would load 50 or 100 and shoot those before loading more. You don't want 1000 rds of something that shoots poorly or doesn't feed correctly, pressures too high, etc.
Just basic quality control.
-Chris

That's kind of weird - no reloads at the range? I have never heard of such a thing. My club would lose at least 90% of its membership, and probably go under, if they ever instituted such a rule. Testing reloads is why most of us go there during the "off season", which is any time of year that is not hunting season.

I did try shooting at a local indoor range once (with a bunch of local Pelicans) and was told I could not shoot my cast bullet reloads. "No lead bullets" was the rule, "because we are an indoor range...". So I asked about shooting .22's. No problem, they said. So, ok, I can shoot hundreds of .22's but no centerfire. And lead from impacting bullets is not the problem anyway, it's airborne lead from lead styphanate primers. Anyway, a losing argument with the flunkies behind the counter. HardDrive and I lit off some of my heavy .45 Colt loads anyway - 300 grain bullets from an LBT mold, driven to 1150 fps with 23 grains of W-W #296. Fun stuff...

So what twist is your AR-15? If it's the old 14" twist, it may have trouble with the 60 grain V-Max. It's a pretty long bullet, and generally requires a faster twist to stabilize. Or a lot more velocity. If you have one of the 7", 8", or 9" twist AR-15's you should be fine. My son's .223 (14" twist) does not shoot them well; the slow twist and lower velocity (~ 3000 fps) combine to under-stabilize them. On the other hand, my .220 Swift stabilizes them quite well with its 12" twist and much higher velocity (~3800 fps).

Jeff,

My AR15 is a 1:12 twist. The local range that I belong to has the "our ammo only" policy for rifles due to "insurance requirements" or that's what they told me. It's probably that they want to make $ by selling rifle ammo, that's it. It's a nice indoor range and I primarily shoot my pistols there and I took my CPL class there.

I'm sure it is purely profit-driven. I can't imagine an insurance company being all that shooting savy.

An AR-15 indoors, huh? My God, that has to be something to behold. The muzzle flash and concussion have just got to be something else. I've actually never fired a centerfire rifle indoors... yowsers...

Yeah, it's loud! My .223 isn't anything compared to my son's .243 WSSM! When we zero'ed in his new rifle and scope, it was loud and the muzzle flash and flash at the backstop was incredible. I'd much prefer to shoot outside, but in the winter here in MI, we have to wait for a decent day and hope it falls on a weekend. The sun goes down before I get home from work, so weekday shooting isn't a possibility.

Wow! I just shot my 1st reloads! All fired well and no FTF's or FTE's. My father gave me his Smith &Wesson Model 645 .45ACP Semi-Auto that he bought new in 1985 and only put 20 rounds through it. When I called him to tell him my 1st .45ACP loads did well, he said "Merry Christmas, the gun is yours", very cool!

I used Hornady 185gr HP/XTP bullets with 7.7gr of Unique powder using Speer brass and CCI magnum small pistol primers (required by Speer) and should be at 1030fps. shot well, handled nice and was pretty accurate at 25yds. I'm very happy with my 1st reloading experience!

Art, I hate to be the guy constantly "raining on your parade", so please don't take it that way. I feel I must point out a couple of things I noticed right away about your .45 ACP load.

First off, 7.7 grains of Unique is right in the middle of the range of allowable charge weights, so you are fine on that count. But about that primer...

Unique should never require a magnum primer under any circumstances. As far as I can tell, Speer has never recommended a magnum primer with Unique. I own all of their manuals, dating back into the '50's, with my newest being their newest - #14. That, and the .45 ACP uses large pistol primers (their #300) rather than small pistol primers (their #500).

I have seen big bore revolver calibers that take small rifle magnum primers, like the .454 Casull, .475 Linbaugh, and other such exceedingly high pressure rounds. The small pocket is used in an effort to strengthen the web area of the case; the magnum primer is used in an effort to light somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 or more grains of a very slow pistol powder, like H110 or W-W 296. The .45 ACP does not operate at anywhere near those pressures, nor does it burn anywhere near that amount of powder. Thus, there is no reason for the small primer pocket nor the magnum primer. I would be very surprised if Speer actually made brass with small primer pockets in this caliber.

Please check your notes and your reference material. The load you present just does not add up.

Jeff,

I appreciate your concern and advice and do not interpret it as "raining on my parade" at all. I'm new to this and I'm learning and so I need knowledgeable folks like you to help, so thank you for taking the time to help a novice.

I bought the used Speer brass at a local gun show since the local stores didn't have any .45ACP brass. The instructions explicitly called for "small pistol primers" on the label of the bag of brass. The man said "I'd use small magnum pistol primers to get the best results, but you don't have to, you can also use small pistol primers". I made 1/2 of my batch with CCI small pistol magnum primers and 1/2 with Federal match small pistol primers and I shot 8 of each last night in my "new" S&W 645 pistol.

I was concerned because my Lee hand primer said not to use Federal primers and I really didn't like the way that the Lee primer flipped primers and doubled up on primers, so I bought the RCBS hand primer after trying it at a relative's house on Thanksgiving. The RCBS hand primer is compatible with all primers and they don't have a "don't use with Federal primers" note on their instructions. The RCBS primer is much easier to use (for me) and doesn't flip primers or double up primers. I'm very careful to measure, recheck my measurements and methodically go through the entire process to achieve good results. One thing that concerns me is the different recommendations that I see out there for a given load, but I guess I'll have to be diligent and pursue good information and I'm taking good notes on what I'm doing. Do I trust the powder manufacturers info or the info that comes with the Speer brass?

I recovered all of my brass from the range last night and inspected the cases and they are not marred, deformed or damaged in any way that is apparent to the naked eye. Thanks again!

Nice work Art, see I told you that you could do reloading! Jeff makes alot of good points about this process, listen and learn we don't want to see you make and bad mistakes. One thing you want to watch is for over pressure in the case it will show up as a flatted primer, Look at the fired cases next to a new primed case and make sure that the primer is not flatend out, there will be a dimpel where the firing pin has struck it but look at the edge of the primer and make sure it looks like the new one, nice and curved in NOT a sharp edge. If it's over presured it will be flatened out in that case reduce the load, or don't seat the bullet as deep. I'm sure Jeff can comment on this as well

"One thing that concerns me is the different recommendations that I see out there for a given load"

Each one was done with a different barrel/pressure chamber, chamber pressure will vary somewhat with any difference. As long as you don't go through ten different manuals looking for the largest given powder charge for a given load (start on the low end) you should do fine. Increase charge weights incrementally if you feel it may aid accuracy.
Jim

Well, I learned something new today. I have quite honestly never seen .45 ACP brass with small primer pockets. I wonder what the reasoning behind this might be. The only reason I have ever heard to justify their use on cases that would otherwise accept large primers is an attempt to greatly increase pressures. The small primer pocket allows for more material to remain in the case head, which will hopefully allow it to contain increased pressures better.

The .45 ACP is about the last candidate on Earth for this kind of "hot-rodding". The most common pistol in this caliber, the old 1911, leaves a good deal of the case unsupported at the bottom of the chamber, just in front of the case head/web area. Any significant increase in pressures over SAAMI specs will blow this portion of the case out, sending hot gasses down the magazine well and sometimes even blowing the magazine out the bottom. Exciting stuff. Too exciting for me.

Jim, flattened primers are a poor indicator of pressures, particularly in a low pressure pistol round. It may be a valid approach in some higher pressure rifle rounds (and even there it is very questionable), but primers just will not even begin to flatten in "standard" (non-magnum) pistol or revolver rounds until pressures are well past maximum acceptable levels. Pistol primers do have softer cups than rifle primers, but they still will not flatten until it's too late.

"Standard" pistol rounds opperate in the roughly 12,000-18,000 CUP range. "Magnum" revolver rounds can hover around 40,000 CUP, with the .454 Casull topping out well over 50,000 CUP. It will flatten pistol primers even in safe loads, hence its requirement for small rifle primers. It will even flatten some of those in perfectly safe loads. High pressure, bottle necked rifle rounds run well over 50,000 CUP as well. Some combinations flatten certain brands of primers long before they reach safe maximum pressures. Some will exceed 70,000 CUP before flattening a primer. Yikes...

Anyway, back to your primers, Art. Even with the small primer pockets, I would stick with the standard primers. Unique will never need a magnum primer. If you have access to a chronograph, it would be interesting to shoot both loads - standard and magnum primers - and compare velocities. In my experience, the magnums will provide both higher velocity and a good deal more shot-to-shot variation when used with a fast burning pistol powder such as Unique. They really only come into their own with much larger quantities of much slower powders, like H110, W-W 296, and Alliant 2400. More velocity = more pressure (when other components remain fixed), so be careful there. More variation = an indication of something out of balance. In this case, for lack of a better description, "over-igniting" the powder charge. I think you will find the standard primers more consistant with Unique, and therefor more accurate.

primer pop outs
 

I am having trouble with primers kicking back when the weapon is fired. It even does it with no powder charge and no bullet-just the primer. Have tried different brands of primers. Nickel cases, various brands. Primer pockets have been cleaned.
Any answers???? Why??