Mama's don't let your babies grow up to be cowboys...let them be lawyers & doctors...

[Dueller]

Lawyer bashing seems to be a national pasttime. Yet I run across numerous people who are very proud that their son or daughter is going to law school. Hmmmmm.

So I did a little impromptu poll last night at my wife's restaurant and found that most peoples' attitudes are that a person who becomes a lawyer (or doctor for that matter) stands a good chance to be successful. As in wealthy. And that's what they want for their children.

Struck me as a sad commentary on our skewed values. Not a single person said people want their kids to join the legal or medical professions so they could help others in need. Not even as a secondary motive.

[KFC911]

I opted to be an "...and such" for the same reason, but it didn't seem to work out . Damn it Waylon...

[Oregon Cab]

All the attorneys I know in my wifes family are unhappy. This may be as a result of disillusionment of their expectations of success. The most successful ones I know work very long hours and have a hard time being civilians (civil) when off the clock.

I have found most doctors are pretty much only good at only one thing. Medicine.

[vash]

my sister became a lawyer later in her life. one thing for sure, she became a bigger pain in my butt. her know-it-all attitude ballooned to gigantic proportions. i can barely deal with it.

[Moses]

I'm not sure. I definitely did not become a doctor to make money. The time and energy I've put into the doctoring gig would have been more richly rewarded in other pursuits. I don't worship money or what it buys. I give a lot away.

I've taught my kids that it's impossible to have a meaningful life without serving others. My son is thinking about a career in medicine and I'm encouraging my daughter to consider law school. There are countless opportunities to serve in nearly every profession. My son does work for Habitat for Humanity and my daughter volunteers for a local wild animal hospital. My wife volunteers at a local crisis nursery for abused/abandoned children. A career in law does not mean you are greedy or self-serving. (that would be Real Estate sales )

As a parent I encourage my kids to achieve a professional vocation for a lot of reasons; independence, flexibility, security and of course the opportunity to serve.

[the]

Most people don't realize how screwed up the payment system is for most lawyers.

People in the finance fields, or even real estate agents, etc., have much better systems. They take a part of the deal as payment, get a guaranteed percentage of the transaction, or other such arrangements. You then get a guaranteed "pop" at the end of the deal, and it can be quite a big pop, for relatively few hours worked.

Most lawyers work on a billable hour system. Thus, you only get paid for hours billed. You don't work an hour, you don't get paid. That is very limiting, there is a cap on how many hours you can work. You are never going to net $500,000/yr working for people by the hour.

Of course, then there is also the collection issue, it doesn't do any good to work and bill an hour unless it is actually paid.

There are ways around those limitations, but they are very difficult. I guess you could be a lucky contingency lawyer. That is a ton of risk, and also takes a lot of effort, talent and ability to be able to get good contingency cases. Most contingency lawyers don't, and earn very little.

The other way is to be a rainmaker and leverage off other attorneys working on your cases. This a highly competitive endeavor, in which 90% fail. It is very difficult for a lawyer to get, and keep, a book of paying clients big enough to provide work for 3, 4 or 5 full time lawyers. Very difficult. But, like making it to the Major leagues, or an actor making it big, it would pay quite well.

But either the highly successful contingency lawyer, or the rainmaker, is very rare. 97% of lawyers do not fall into that category. Even in big states like California, the average lawyer only makes 5 figures per year.

[ruf-porsche]

I encourage my children to find something that they will be happy in. My parents push us to become professional people so they have two Architects, two doctors and a License practical nurse who is now an admin for the ems program in our city. None of us would wish that our children follow us in our careers.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by Oregon Cab

I have found most doctors are pretty much only good at only one thing. Medicine.

Sadly, that's often the case.

Originally Posted by vash

my sister became a lawyer later in her life. one thing for sure, she became a bigger pain in my butt. her know-it-all attitude ballooned to gigantic proportions. i can barely deal with it.

You're touching on my pet peeve. It seems that when a lot of folks achieve some degree of financial success they start to think their "expertise" extends to all facets of life. They are smug pricks and are incapable of containing their self adoration. They offer unsolicited advice on every subject imaginable.

There's a local (very wealthy) real estate developer who is so unbearable that I walk the other way when he approaches. He thinks his financial success imparts every manner of wisdom and virtue. He freely offers council to others on how, with focus and determination, they could be more like him.

I know a lot of doctors (and lawyers) who suffer the same affliction. Is wealth really incompatible with humility?

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by Moses

.... Is wealth really incompatible with humility?

I would VERY HUMBLY say yes

[ramonesfreak]

Originally Posted by Oregon Cab

All the attorneys I know in my wifes family are unhappy. This may be as a result of disillusionment of their expectations of success. The most successful ones I know work very long hours and have a hard time being civilians (civil) when off the clock.

I have found most doctors are pretty much only good at only one thing. Medicine.

i never became a lawyer because i expected to make tons of money. even at 21 years of age, i knew there were far better ways to get rich or, to even make a typical average sallary.

the reason why many become miserable, including myself, is because of the clients. many of whom are the most rude, uneducated, pathetic, nasty, demanding, condescending, judgmental A-holes you could ever come across...many of whom make comments like those i read on this forum about how lawyers are scum etc.....

having many of them calling you day in and day out, screaming at you and wrongfully accusing you of wrongdoing is no way to spend a life. i pitty the fool that goes to lawschool. if i had a kid and he wanted to go, i would lock him in the basement

one thing i am good at, is being a civilian and not working long hours. i am no longer willing to sacrifice my free time, beyond a 9 hour day, for anybody on this earth for any amount of money. screw it.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by the

The other way is to be a rainmaker and leverage off other attorneys working on your cases. This a highly competitive endeavor, in which 90% fail. It is very difficult for a lawyer to get, and keep, a book of paying clients big enough to provide work for 3, 4 or 5 full time lawyers. Very difficult. But, like making it to the Major leagues, or an actor making it big, it would pay quite well.

.

Leverage is how most partners in big firms make their money. In fact most large firms will not make you a partner unless you have proven that you can leverage your practice—the higher the better.

But what happens then when, say, a couple of your key clients have no work for you, or god-forbid, cross the road to the competition? Suddenly your six or seven highly paid associates don't have enough to do, so they start spinning their tires on the files that they do have, because they know that their bonuses are dependent on the billable hours they collect, and you encourage them in this because your profit share is dependent upon the collections of your associates.

I think if the average client knew just how inherently conflicted and dishonest the billing process in large law firms is, they'd have a coronary.

[the]

Originally Posted by Dottore

Leverage is how most partners in big firms make their money. In fact most large firms will not make you a partner unless you have proven that you can leverage your practice—the higher the better.

But what happens then when, say, a couple of your key clients have no work for you, or god-forbid, cross the road to the competition? Suddenly your six or seven highly paid associates don't have enough to do, so they start spinning their tires on the files that they do have, because they know that their bonuses are dependent on the billable hours they collect, and you encourage them in this because your profit share is dependent upon the collections of your associates.

I think if the average client knew just how inherently conflicted and dishonest the billing process in large law firms is, they'd have a coronary.

A lot of that is true. You do not have a future at a big firm if you can't develop a book of business, you won't be made partner.

And it is very difficult to develop that book. At big firms these days, partners bill at $500+ per hour, and even the most junior associates must be at $250/hour now.

Imagine how difficult it would be to find clients capable of paying those amounts. We are talking about monthly bills of tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars. You have to do this indefinitely. That is a tremendous amount of pressure.

It is very easy to lose those big clients, too. If your contact person moves to another company, you may lose the client. If the client is bought out or merged into another company, you almost always lose them.

Lawyers at big firms do sometimes churn bills, and that's a lot of stress on the rainmaking partner, too. How do you send out, and collect, a bill for $80,000 that is nothing but a bunch of make-work time billed by $350/hr associates? You can't, b/c you'll lose the client. (Most big clients have in house counsel or accounting which reviews the bills - you can't charge for nothing). It is a tremendous amount of stress.

It's funny how many kids go to law school because they "are good debaters" or "good arguers," when that has almost nothing to do with the real business of law. That's why there is such a high dissatisfaction rate among lawyers. They don't make the money they thought they were going to make, and they didn't realize that it is first a foremost a sales business. And a very cutthroat one, at that.

[ramonesfreak]

the same thing happens in small low-stress, defense firms...insurance defense firms. suddenly its slow for any number of reasons. what do you do as an associate with a 2,000 billable hour requirement for the year? grab a bunch of old files and start drafting letters, motions, demands, file reviews etc.... god what a nightmare. its like being stuck in a nightmare of trivial bullcrap and home work with absolutely zero intellectual satisfaction

parents, please spare your child the goddamn misery of this lifestyle. ive been paying these damn law school loans for 11 years now and the misery continues and in in the meantime, im ashamed to admit to people i meet what i do for a living because of the public's unforgiving opinion

[Noah930]

As a doctor, I will discourage my kids to follow in my footsteps. I think the legal and financial climate is extremely unfriendly to my portion of the medical profession.

[BRPORSCHE]

How about just becoming a Corporate lawyer? Or maybe even a Patent attorney? Semms like you don't have worry about a few of these things.

[ramonesfreak]

corporate lawyers, patent lawyers have billable hour requirements = heart-attack inducing stress. even in-house work is no fun

the only way to be happy in this profession in my opinion, is to early on get a great case, settle that case for $20 million dollars, take your 1/3 fee, and retire

[scottmandue]

Thank gaud I decided to become a cowboy!

Yee Haw!

[ramonesfreak]

wanna be a lawyer? consider this job first please. youll have more fun and make more money in the long run

[Dueller]

Originally Posted by Noah930

As a doctor, I will discourage my kids to follow in my footsteps. I think the legal and financial climate is extremely unfriendly to my portion of the medical profession.

You are not alone. In my impromptu, unscientific poll last night, every doctor (2) and lawyer (4) I spoke to last night said they would not wish their chosen profession on their children.

[Dottore]

Originally Posted by Dueller

You are not alone. In my impromptu, unscientific poll last night, every doctor (2) and lawyer (4) I spoke to last night said they would not wish their chosen profession on their children.

The American Bar Association did a survey among it's members a few years ago and a full 86% of the respondents said that they "hated" their profession.

That's quite an indictment.