Is the middle class a false reality?
 

What if the middle class is a lie? What if it only exists due to borrowed money and the note is now due?

Thinking of overpaid autoworkers (both working and retired), too easily accessed credit (something the middle class can not exist without), etc. etc. All the things we are seeing fail these days because they don't really work.

Is not the middle class a relatively new creation? Perhaps it is not a natural state and is entirely dependant on gov't intervention and other groups bucking true capitalism.

Just a thought.

snow tires

False premise.

If the middle class falters, the economy goes into depression. It happened back then. It can happen again.

Do you not know any plumbers, factory workers, carpenters, etc?

EVERYONE is middle class in this country. The whole concept is a lie.

Does that make me white trash?

Does surfs, and vassels count?

Which is a lie, my theory or the concept of a middle class?

Factory workers where i live (chicken country) don't get paid well at all. Can't say that i know a lot of comfortable plumbers or carpenters. I did recently meet a very well off sheet metal guy but he was union.

Maybe where you live is too expensive? I work at an aircraft company, the factory worker's base pay is around $15/hr, maxing out at about $35/hr. A good licensed plumber, pipefitter, HVAC guy, carpenter, etc can easily make $20-$30/hr. Obviously they do even better if they are self-employed. On these wages in KS, you can easily buy a nice house, have nice things, and raise a family.

Same here in Houston. A 2500 sq ft house on the edge, can be had for $100K.

Well, his profile says Maryland, so yeah; where he lives is too expensive.

So what do you call it when everyone is broke?

Homeless

Kinda ironic that we have this glut of housing but people are losing their homes.

In Days of yore there was only two class

Royalty

and

Peasant.

Middle class are just peasant that wants to be closer to Royalty.

Marylanders.

Since the Middle Ages there has been a Middle Class. They are the store owners, the trades man, the importers exporter and the Bankers (in the middle ages one could NOT be a Christian and lend money for interest, therefore only the Jews were bankers in Europe).

In America one could become Middle Class and be an unskilled facotry worker (Unionized) starting in the 1950's. After WW2 the USA was the only industrialized nation in the world that was unscratched by the war, and they had to buy form us or do without (tractors, heavy equipment) So our labour could charge a premium. Before WW2 one was just working class. The Middle Class in America before WW1 were the tradesman, MD's Lawyers, store owners, sm factory owners..much smaller.

Going forward we are going to return to a more segmented society. eg a smaller true middle class. The dream of a large inclusive Middle Class, was doomed from the begining since the Marshall Plan in 1948 was conceived to rebuild our competitors industrail capacity. It took the USA rougly 40 years (1968) to squander by living large the money we made during and right after WW2.


We have become a SUBPRIME NATION.

WOW over here 100K will get you a cover parking space for your car.

Heh heh. A couple years ago, when I was living in Boston, that's about how much a parking space would go for in the Back Bay. Usually uncovered, no less.

I'm certainly not upper class, and I've never been on Jerry Springer...so I reckon I'm somewhere "smack dab in the middle" :).

The middle class is certainly not a lie. Membership is not automatic though, one needs to work and accumulate wealth to rise in the American version of the middle class. It is not guaranteed either. You don't have a birthright to class membership in the USA. Even the upper class get catch the elevator down. Where I live there are all classes and I agree the middle class is under stress right now. Easy credit is not a new thing, people have been struggling with that for generations. Leverage is a great tool, but it can be like a drug. Easy to abuse for the last 10 years, and now those that did are in trouble.
One thing I didn't see mentioned in this thread that helped create America's vast wealth and middle class was the homestead acts of the 19th century that virtually gave away huge chunks of land to anyone that would work it and improve it. That free land was the key, as in europe the landowning class is very small and exclusive. As the immigrants filled these empty spaces, all sorts of good things happened, and left behind the building blocks for a huge middle class. Towns grews, the industrial revolution came along and the wealth increased exponentially.
The middle class grew to enormous size, and is still huge.
Once we get through this pain and get through the de-leveraging we will trive again. It's gonna be ugly for a while, though. And as someone mentioned above, plenty of spots in this country are still thriving and doing well(the low cost places that never had a bubble in real estate).

Great stuff!

Each time there has been prosperity for tradesmen, it was brought about by unionism. Back in the day, there were the Masons. It became a brotherhood of workers who had the skill and training to make things out of stone. They limited their membership and were in solidarity regarding rates of pay and working conditions. Same as now.

The middle class is alive and well. There are always persons that want to live above their means..it just seems that that number of people has risen sharply over the past few years. The "New Middle Class" will consist of those that didn't allow their wants to exceed their needs. Merchants, skilled tradesmen, entrepreneurs, physicians, optometrists, attorneys, accountants,etc. will continue to fill the ranks of the middle class.

Superman, you frequently swing conversations to support your pro-union stance. You obviously like unions; I don't. What I do believe though is that you take the union serious as I am sure you do your profession. I am sure you surround yourself with well educated craftsmen and see the benefits of the union reward those that really work hard at being professionals.

What most who don't like unions see is the blatant overpayment of unskilled labor, such as a factory worker at GM making $40-75 per hour. (Hell there are some GP's that don't make that much per hour.) Or the abuse of power that unions use, such as making it "against company policy" to change your own light bulb or move your filing cabinet.
Skilled, dedicated craftsmen/tradesmen are hard to come by. A skilled worker can make what the market bears for their service. The more skilled the person, the higher their earning potential is. Unions are not the reason deserving tradesmen's income has increased, the skill of the worker should dictate the rate of pay.

Ben

You want to tell that to all of the non-union workers in factories, making a good wage? Or all of the non-union tradesmen that make a good living? In the 19th century there was a place for unions to protect the employees. Today that role has been taken over by government agencies, leaving the union to fill the role of extortionists.

I work at an aircraft company with union labor. Today I was told that I can't carry an engine inlet and exhaust MAYBE 100 yards to be modified for a project I am running. These are relatively small and lightweight parts, I could carry each with one hand and would prefer to hand deliver them to expedite the work. Instead, I will have to request that a material handler deliver them. Which will require that work going into said worker's que (i.e. I wait), then they will load the small lightweight parts into a truck and drive them to their destination a short distance away. So, what I could do in 5 minutes will probably take a few days, and the odds are good they won't be delivered to the right person. But if I deliver them and get caught? The union will file a grievance.:rolleyes:

In reality there are only two classes - those with power and those without. To take this a step further, there are really only those with the means to assert their will/influence over others and those who cannot or will not. I'd argue that the entire premise of a "civilized society" is artificial when one gets right down to brass tacks. If the checks and safety mechanisms built into it to keep it in place (i.e. prosperity - or the illusion of it, encouraged/trained civility, ever-present government control, etc.) start to crack and fail, we will fall right into animalistic chaos with violence, looting, etc. It'll become a free-for-all and if that happens, you'll see how "civilized" human beings really are at their core.

For one, I hope and pray it doesn't come to that because if it does, it'll be carnage on an epic scale with very real and permanent damage (injury, death, etc.) The current economic situation is very, very worrisome because it begins to chip away at one of the cornerstones of civilized society - the notion that people can attain prosperity and wealth. If that goes away, it won't be long before there's a "no confidence" referendum in the government model running the show and if that happens... Let's just say the dominoes start falling.

Middle class was defined in English society. Originally, there were 2 classes, Royal and common. Middle class were those in the common class who, usually were landed or owned a business. By definition, the American society, the "Upper Crust" were always middle class.

In the US, we have "poor", which is never really defined, and almost no one calls themselves that. We have middle class, again which is never defined. And then we have "Rich".

So, basically, if you make more than $10K per year, you are middle class.

The Securities and Exchange Commission has recently redefined what it means to be “rich.”
Why? Because the SEC restricts hedge fund ownership and other “private money” investments to the wealthy, whom they assume can take care of themselves.
This requires the regulatory body to define - and redefine - what it means to be “rich.” This year the SEC made a new ruling.

So, to be "Rich", you have to have $2.5 million in investable assets.

$2.5 million in investable assets > "Middle class" > 10K income

You've been taking your happy pills, haven't you? Turn off the news and step outside, you'll realize that THINGS AREN'T THAT BAD.:)

So what I'm saying is "no." The middle class is not natural. At least.....it's not a product of a pure capitalism system. In a pure, unregulated capitalism system it would be rare indeed if not completely impossible for someone to move from the bottom eschelon to the top. And no, there would be no middle. Socialistic notions like unionism and employment law impact the balance of power and permit a game other than Winner Take All.

It's not a lie; but other than the definition that REDBEARD gave, the modern day middle class ONLY exists because of the ability to borrow. Take a look at third world countries where the population cannot borrow. There is a lower and upper class only. Now introduce the ability to borrow money and alas, you create a middle class society.

So the middle class in our countries only exists because of their ability to borrow money; no ability, no middle class. imo.

Keep in mind that "Broke" means you're at ZERO. Most people would give their left nut to be at "Broke"; I know that was a goal of mine for years.... just to own the stuff I'd already bought; ha. The majority of people are far worse off than broke, they're in debt.

Supe i don't know how you can be from Wash. and make sense to me but damn if we don't need to have a beer sometime.