Did they give you your penis back??

My old VW truck got around 45MPG and could carry Fuchs http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1229904615.jpg

My brother had a '96 honda civic coupe, bottom of the line, and he did the "basic" mods to it i.e., intake/header/exhaust/rims/lowering/etc. Fun car to drive, extremely simple to work on, and he averaged upper 40s MPG.

A Prius gets around 45 MPG and carries sweet Fuch all! :D

Sorry, but my daily driver is an A5 Jetta TDI that goes just over 1000km on most tanks of fuel.

Hybrids are great for cars that do mostly stop & go, but I suspect it would suck trying to get one over a long mountain pass.

As stated above, for most people they are a statement.

Les

"I advise anyone interested to do some research -- you will find most claims above have been debunked.

re batteries - they last quite a while and can be easily recycled - there was an article on this just this month but I don't recall where - could have been Cons. Reports or NYT"

Maybe you should do some research. Toyota only recently reduced the cost of the battery (excluding installation) from $5,500 to $3,000 after getting so much bad publicity. Considering a Toyota diesel or gasoline engine can go a few hundred thousand miles before needing that kind of coin it's clear the Prius is no bargain. The batteries cannot be easily recycled- not sure where you got that. That's why a high mileage Prius is worth so little.

But if it makes you feel better and you think they look great by all means avail yourself...you could buy a used one and save 50%.

you are wrong

BTW - why do you think they can offer an 8-yr./100000-mi. warranty??

But if you can find me a used one for 50%, let me me know - it would make a fun little parts runner

and... I could impress Paul.

also - remember, the Prius has all the modern safety and emissions features - IIRC, it is PZEV. That makes a comparison to a Sprite inappropriate - if other reasons do not.

If you don't want one, don't buy it. But please don't spread lies about the car, just because you are a right-winger.

Toyota Prius Tops Consumer Satisfaction Survey
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/cr_consumer_satisfaction.html

Randy,
my point about the Prisus is that it touts itself as one of the most Eco friendly car available...that is simply not true.
First off, emissions to manufacture one exceed levels for other vehicles.
The energy(CO2) required to produce a car with body panels derived from plant matter is greater than that of steel.
The energy(CO2) required to produce two engines will always be more than a car requiring one.
The energy required to mine, refine, assemble and transport all the Nickel-Metal-Hydride (NiMH) batteries far exceeds the energy needed to produce one lead acid battery. Sure the batteries can be recycled but, as everyone knows, the cost and energy used to recycle anything is greater than starting from scratch. use so much
The Prisus makes up for all the increased energy and CO2 emissions by reporting that the cars emissions are less than conventional model.
This is partly true. The reduced emissions reported are derived from a controlled test with consideration given to the typical owner using it primarily as an urban vehicle. Estimated travel speeds are less than 40mph and there the Hybrid vehicle does shine because the internal combustion engine is not running. The batteries are providing power to the motor and the brakes are helping to recharge the batteries. This is truly a brilliant system.
The truth though is that if the Prisus is driven head to head with a conventional automobile on the interstate(using it's gas engine), it is right on par with similar gas powered vehicles.
If you consider the cost to manufacture, cost to purchase, and estimated life span(100,000 miles:eek:) of the Prisus, they are not saving the planet or really helping in that arena. They are definetly a step in the right direction; tomorrow's technology is dependant on today's efforts.

Wouldn't it make more sense to convert a car such as a 2000 Civic to CNG?? Modern safety devices; no cost to manufacture a new car and CNG emissions are some of the cleanest of any internal combustion engines.

I don't hate the Prisus. I do think it is ugly but that is just an opinion. It simply is not the "holy grail of transportation" that so many think it is.

Ben

We would be much better off just converting to natural gas. The technology and fuel are already in use. It's just a marketing issue.

Running a car on SVO, or straight vegetable oil is another option - diesels can be converted to this type of system. The only drawbacks:


1. You need two tanks - one for conventional diesel and one for veggie oil. You need to start the car on conventional diesel, and let it run on diesel to get the last of the veggie oil out of the fuel lines, since veggie oil needs to be heated to a certain temp in order to be usable in an internal combustion engine. (The engine running on diesel can sufficiently heat up the the veggie oil to proper temps)

2. You need to have a way to monitor the temp of the veggie oil and have a way to switch from diesel to veggie oil.

Read about this stuff in Grassroots Motorsports. I believe Randy Probst drives a converted VW Jetta diesel on SVO.

-Z

We really like our Prius, we've had it since 2005 and as a car overall it has served its purpose well. It's a great grocery getter, it gets very good gas mileage without much effort but gets even better with a little effort.

It was cheap, we couldn't have gotten the same quality car for the price (~$23k after tax, tag and title). A corolla is significantly smaller in cargo area and passenger area. A Camry is slightly wider but a few thousand more. The Honda's in the same class are also more expensive. We wanted a hatch back too - not many out there. I use it to haul my radio control airplanes and I can get even my largest planes in it almost comfortably (80" wing).


Over time, we've lost some of the mileage, I'm not sure if it is my wife's driving but when we got it I could get 48 mpg out of it. Today however I have to work to get 42 out of it. We've got about 45k miles on it. So, I'm not terribly pleased with that loss of mileage but overall for the price and what we got - I'm happy enough.

My volvo V70, which has a bit more passenger and a bit more cargo space gets crappy mileage (19-22mpg city) but I bought that used...

Ben - do you have a source for those stmts.?

I have seen them made many times, but the only place I ever found them stated was in a college student newspaper where they were just stated baldly without any backup.

If there is a source, I'll take a look at it.

Mikester, RWebb said the Prius batteries "last quite a while"... and later says the Prius has "an 8-yr./100000-mi. warranty"... in response to others' discussion of the high battery replacement cost issue.

Are the batteries warrantied for 8-yr./100000-mi.?

What's the fastest that you guys really need to drive in the city? 50 mph? 60 mph? One is lucky to go that fast on the 405, 101 or 10 freeway in L.A. during daylight hours. For that reason alone, the Prius makes sense. It's not my kind of sense simply because I like a little more oomph. But the Prius does have its purposes. It's no sports car. But it can damn sure swallow a chest of drawers and get 30+ mpg doing so. That is for who the Prius is built.

Thankfully we're still allowed some choice...I can't help but wonder how long that will be the case, with the government attaching strings to our money that they are giving the domestic car brands...

I doubt I'll ever choose to buy a Prius...just couldn't do it.

Randy, I hope you are not taking this personal. I respect your opinions and often agree with your posts. I like a good debate and I am certainly not an anti-enviromentalist. I am all for more efficient cars being available; I just don't believe the Prius is as great a leap forward as many say.


"The energy(CO2) required to produce two engines will always be more than a car requiring one. " Coventional wisdom

The energy required to mine, refine, assemble and transport all the Nickel-Metal-Hydride (NiMH) batteries far exceeds the energy needed to produce one lead acid battery. Again, conventional wisdom. Too many steps involved and too many factories needed

Sure the batteries can be recycled but, as everyone knows, the cost and energy used to recycle anything is greater than starting from scratch.
There are a few items that are less expensive to recycle than manufacture/refine. Aluminum and glass art the two most common. Many papers and websites discuss this in depth.

The Prisus makes up for all the increased energy and CO2 emissions by reporting that the cars emissions are less than conventional model.
This is partly true. The reduced emissions reported are derived from a controlled test with consideration given to the typical owner using it primarily as an urban vehicle. Estimated travel speeds are less than 40mph and there the Hybrid vehicle does shine because the internal combustion engine is not running. The batteries are providing power to the motor and the brakes are helping to recharge the batteries. EPA mileage testing protocol. From the EPA website:
The city fuel economy estimate is currently based on the Federal
Test Procedure (FTP), which was designed to measure a vehicle's
tailpipe emissions under urban driving conditions. The driving cycle
used for the FTP was developed in the mid-1960's to represent home-to-
work commuting in Los Angeles. The FTP is also one of the tests used to
determine emissions compliance today. The FTP includes a series of
accelerations, decelerations, and idling (such as at stop lights). It
also includes starting the vehicle after it has been parked for an
extended period of time (called a ``cold start''), as well as a start
on a warmed-up engine (called a ``The total distance
covered by the FTP is about 11 miles and the average speed is about 21
mph
The truth though is that if the Prisus is driven head to head with a conventional automobile on the interstate(using it's gas engine), it is right on par with similar gas powered vehiclest . Convential wisdom , similar engines produce similar emmisions

As I said, I am not against having technology that helps the environment. I will purchase and promote products that actually deliver the results they claim. What I am against is the misrepresentation and belief that a product is better than it's competitors based on selective data compilation.

The Prius is a good car and I am glad that many are using them. Urban dwellers are the target market and the car will deliver great economy for the end user.
For those of us that do not live in urban environments, there is no benefit realized from driving this car versus another similar sized, conventional car.

We have a 2007 Prius.

We get about 44 mpg in daily summer driving (all city, short trips, a big hill every day), 50 mpg in surbuban-type driving, 50-55 mpg on freeway at 70 mph, about 58-60 mpg on freeway at 60-62 mph. This is real world mileage, and quite good. The VW diesel is the only car sold in the US that comes close. The only time we get unimpressive mpg is in winter - temps in the 20s/low 30s, snow tires, cold engine on short trips, and the local winter 10% ethanol gasoline puts us down to 35 mpg. Still other cars are getting 20 mpg in similar conditions.

This is a modern car, with all the active and passive safety, traction/stability control, navigation/entertainment stuff that people expect (and the law requires) today. That's why you can't compare the Prius to a 50's Austin-Healey Bugeye or a 60's Mini or a 70's VW Rabbit Diesel on an 80's Izuzu iMark diesel or any of the fuel economy champs of past decades. None of those cars would be legal to sell today, and few would buy them if they were.

The stuff about a Prius being environmentally unfriendly to build is wrong. This has been debunked so many times, I'm tired of it. Basically, building any new car consumes resources and, yes, for maximum eco-friendliness we should all drive our existing cars as little as possible and bicycle everywhere else. But if you're going to buy a new car, the Prius is not more resource-consuming than any other high-content modern car. Sure it has an electric motor and a battery, but it has an exceptionally small gasoline motor and a particularly small transmission too. Yes the battery's materials come from a mine and are shipped around the world, what do you think the supply chain for steel, aluminium, plastic, rubber looks like? None of this stuff grows in organic farms right next to the Toyota factory.

Is the Prius fun to drive? Not in any "sportscar" sense. It is fun to play the fuel economy game, though. In daily driving - humdrum city commuting in 30 mph speed limits - I find it more interesting to squeeze an extra 1/10 mpg than to never get out of third in the 911.

This is not correct.

If you drive a Prius 70mph on a flat freeway, you will get about 50 mpg. Drop it to 60-65 mpg, driving carefully, and you will get high-50s mpg.

You will not get similar mileage from any other vehicle, save a VW Jetta TDi or a couple other hybrids.

True, the Prius' traction battery and electric motor are not doing much under that situation. But the car is aerodynamic, the gas engine is small, so it is inherently a very economical car regardless of the hybrid feature.

If you drive a Prius in suburban/rural environments, you can get very good mileage. Because the speed of those sorts of roads (40-50 mph) is in the Prius' sweet spot, there are many opportunities for the car to glide with the gas motor turned off and to recover energy from coasting/braking, also the longer trips mean the engine is warm most of the time. Assuming not a "very" hilly area, a Prius will get high-40s or low-50s in that environment.

Again, you won't get similar mileage from any other vehicle, save Jetta TDI/a couple other hybrids.

So, I disagree that the Prius is only for "urban" dwellers. If mpg is your priority, the car works no matter where you live and drive. Obviously, if performance, towing, carrying six, etc is the priority, then the car doesn't work. Styling is personal, but I don't consider it a great looker - more a "I got used to it" look.

This is true here in the US. In Europe, they have awesome Jaguar, Mercedes, and BMW turbo-diesels that achieve similar mileage in ultra-luxury, full size sedans. I want to start seeing cars like that here. I would entertain that purchase in the next 4-8 years.

Why don't the turbodiesels do very well in the USA EPA mileage tests? Certainly aren't getting "similar mileage" to a Prius.

2008 Mercedes ML320CDI turbodiesel EPA: 18 mpg city / 24 mpg hwy

2008 Mercedes ML350 gas EPA: 15 mpg / 20 mpg

impossible for a motorcycle rider to not feel smug about this.