Need a little advise
 

My daughter graduates from college in the spring. She will have a degree in communications with honors. She has applied to law school and if she does not get accepted she needs to get a job. She lives in San Francisco and has very little work experience. The problem she has had in the past is the "work experience" dilemma .
Any advise will be appreciated. I realize its not the best time to be looking for a job, but............SmileWavy

Internship.

unfortunately law internships require you to be in law school.:(

Get her to the career office at school and have her talk to some one. I'm sure there are job fairs and internships lined up for people just like her.

sales
marketing
advertising (account mgmt)
public relations
etc.

Getting into law school won't be a problem. The issue will be whether she wants to attend one of the schools she gets accepted to. No matter what, there's always a school that's willing to take you. I am living proof of that :) The question is whether she wants to be a lawyer. I know this is a simple question that should be self-evident, but in my experience very few people who go to law school really want to be lawyers. She should absolutely go to any school that accepts her - if she has a burning fire in the belly to be a lawyer. If she doesn't, she should not go to law school. If she goes to law school without wanting to be a lawyer, she will spend the rest of her life mismatched and unhappy. That's one reason why so many lawyers are so unhappy. They go to law school before realizing they don't want to be lawyers, and then they're stuck. DO NOT believe anyone who says that law school will prepare her for other careers or is a good way to hide out during the recession. The only thing law school does is qualify you to be a lawyer. If she wants to round out a liberal arts education, she should get into graduate school. If she wants to make money, she should get into business school. If she wants to be a lawyer she should got to law school.

Anyway, if she decides not to attend the schools she is accepted to, and she still wants to prepare for a legal career, she should think of internships. Law-related internships don't necessarily require that she is a law student. Being a law clerk requires her to be a law student, but she could intern with a corporate law department as a communications specialist, in the marketing department of a large law firm, or anything like that. And don't think that it has to be related to law for the internship/first job to prepare her for a career in law. Almost any good job will prepare her for law school and a legal career.

As for looking for a job, this semester while she is still in school, she should do any internship in her field she can to get the "real life experience" employers want. She should work on the school newspaper, the yearbook, volunteer to write copy for the communication department's newsletter, anything to show that she has some actual hands-on experience. Tell her not to worry about being paid; she's doing it to get the experience. That will put her head and shoulders above other graduating seniors who are looking for work.

Well, some could advise her with advice.

When my daughter was 16 (now 23) she wanted to get a part time job. Instead of going the waitress route, I convinced her to go and get an office job at a doctor, lawyer, or accountants office. She went the accountant route and did that for two summers, then the accountant joined KPMG and got her to come and work with him in the summers (while in High School!, which is kind of unheard of). She went to college got a degree in accounting and worked at KPMG in the summers, she is now on partner track at KPMG and working on her CPA, at 23!

MRM's advice is excellent. The reality of being a lawyer is far from the romantic depiction in the media. And consider this: if she has no real world experience when she graduates from law school it will be difficult for her to find a job in the legal world barring graduating at the top of her class/law journal/moot court honors.

Just out of curiosity, why does she want to be a lawyer? And what field of law is she interested in?

Is she hot?

MRM's advice is good.

Becoming a lawyer is usually a lifetime committment. Law school is expensive, lawyering skills are not directly transferable to other jobs, and the income step-down from changing careers becomes too much.

Yet lawyering can easily be exhausting, stressful, tedious, or unrewarding - or all four - for the wrong person.

Result is a lot of trapped and unhappy lawyers.

Before she enters law school. she needs to find out what the job is really like. Find some lawyers to talk to, not young naive ones either, but 40 y/o ones.

I was a lawyer for 13 years and became partner in a firm before I got out. Transitioning to a new career took going back to grad school and starting all over at the bottom.

Not telling her to avoid the profession - plenty of people thrive on the work - but going to law school is a far bigger committment than earning a communications degree.

a lawyer? Why?

the dilemma she will be in was the same one I was in, and, is the silly reason i went to lawschool.

communication degree, business degree....tough market. not alot of satisfying jobs without advanced degrees. typically what i found available was commision only jobs...."Estate Planning" type crap. Honesty, now days, its quite normal for a college graduate to wonder why they even bothered

man if i could go back and get the $300K that my education cost, damn i would be stoked

didnt we have this exact same thread last year?

Concur - esp. with the lead in:

BUT, lawyers do lots of things you or she may not be thinking about as "lawyer stuff." An aid to a federal or state representative is one.

Law schools are often populated by bright people who cannot do math. Often, they no real idea why they are there except that they are smart, non-scientific, and have no focus yet on what they really want to do.

But I would not discount thew value of learning the sort of analysis taught in law school. It is different from the analysis a scientist or engineer does, but it is nontheless a valuable skill.

Lawyers complain a lot, but it beats digging ditches for a living.

My view on law is why do it if there is not an important public purpose involved -- but I am not real money hungry and have other things to do with my time.

What is her general thrust in life?

I have given MUCH thought to the topic of how one can go about learning whether a career as a lawyer is right for them. Its too late for me now, obviously, to go back in time. But, from time to time, someone will ask me if they should go to lawschool. I have little to offer them

In my opinion, there is no way to know for sure. Some people just know....im not sure why

The only non-attorney job that strikes me as giving some insight into what some lawyers do, is the position of insurance claims handler. Im not talking about the guy that goes to look at your dented fender after an accident.

If she could get a job at an insurance company handling, for example, workers' compensation claims, she would get the experience of having to reading medical records, researching medical terms, how to negotiate, how to make decisions to pay or not pay a claim, understanding how to force a claim into litigation or avoid litigation, how to communicate with lawyers, reading deposition transcripts, on and on etc.....

Of course there are many fields of law that have nothing to do with insurance companies but i cant think of any non-attorney jobs in those areas that would prepare a person, or give insight into what lawyers do

lawschool is ZERO insight into what being a lawyer does every day....except the reading and problem solving part

She feels it "fits" her strongest points, which are 1. Always has been the top writer in all classes. 2. She is great at communication and argument. 3. Loves research and endless hours of concentration.

I know, I know the first thing Natasha said to me was, "Dad, you spelled advice wrong":D

Well sorta, she is in the panic mode, applying for schools, second guessing herself, typical 21 year old crap.

i disagree. it will be easy for her to find a job as a lawyer BUT, she may be making only $25K per year, doing work she dislikes or is not interested in... but thats real life

My first attorney job in 1997 paid $25K per year. The next year 30K, the following year I skipped firms and doubled it, on and on....

I have alot of friends that are new lawyers in their first jobs.....getting paid about $40K per year avg. now. And it should go up quite quickly after 3 or 4 years of experience

Im not talking about ivy league schools and white shoe firms obviously. im talking about what its "typical" for an average new law school graduate

If I recall last years thread, she was only going to apply to a couple schools. if this is correct, it is a big mistake. I think I applied to 20 law schools. Even with LOUSY grades, well, average B grades, I got into the majority of schools I applied to. There is no reason to panic, unless you applying only to Harvard with no fall back position

Just want to thank everyone for the insight and advice, its appreciated.
:D

these are important skills to have as a lawyer, obviously

a bit vague and meaningless though

for example, i LOVE to research music history. I could spend days and days researching guitars and motorcycles and jazz record labels, , surfboards. hell, last week i even researched Big Foot for about 4 hours etc...

I dont particularly enjoy legal research. BORING :) snore snore snore

concentration: see above. Not sure if I have ADHD but I could concentrate on say, architecture of the Bauhaus movement for about 10 hours in a row.

Concentrate on drafting a motion.....uh, I seem to check pelican parts web site every 5 minutes.

I dunno why, but I just get this cozmic feeling that your daughter is probably right for law school.

She should probably spend some time, one on one, picking the brain of a seasoned attorney...someone considerate enough to spend the time and be honest. Unfortuantely, I would be willing to bet that the advice she gets is, "marry rich". Funny, founding partner of a local very successful firm today told me, (he is probably about 64), if there is one bit of advice he could give a young lawyer like me, its to "marry rich". which means basically, your life is going to be hell doing this work, unless you get lucky

i will admit though, its better than digging ditches - as stated above

Funny thing about law school...from my experience and discussions with a variety of lawyers anbd doctors who attended various schools, law school and med school admissions/retention are polar opposites: Its fairly easy to get into law school but once you're in they do their damndest to flunk you out. Whereas its very difficult to get into med school but once you're in they do everything to make sure you finish.

126....what area does she think she's interested in? While its likely she will be accepted somewhere she wants to go, if she had a fallback plan of what to do in the unlikely event she doesn't get accepted she won't stress so much. E.g., if she wants to do real estate work she could work on a realtor's license...or if interested in politics/legislation get a job as a legislative staffer. Capisce?;)

prolly cause there are never enough doctors and way too many lawyers in this world

She is not real sure what area of law she would be interested, but she wants to be in the courtroom, litigation? Fall back plan, Graduate School.

She should get a commission as an officer in any of the armed services as an intel officer...do four years, learn a lot, serve her country and and have all the work experience anyone could ask for.

Doing more of the same is, well, the same. Stretch.

Edit: Fall back is grad school? 126, get her out in the world.

what sort of graduate degree for fall back? i would rather have a JD over a masters or MBA, anyday. like my old granddad said to me long ago, no matter what happens, with a JD i can always hang a shingle and work no matter what the economy is doing

If she knows she likes courtoom litigation, thats a good sign. I had no plans to do that and would crap my pants at the thought of public speaking prior to getting out of school. Now, being in court is the only part of my job i enjoy. I really do like arguing my case in court. its good fun

litigation doesnt narrow it down though...personal injury litigation, corporate litigation, divorce litigation, criminal litigation etc... all in due time.

its not fair to pressure one's self into narrowing it down at this early stage.

agree re Intel

she should try for Hastings & Boalt

Did she take the LSAT yet?

Nothing wrong with grad.s chool - esp. if she wants to be an Intel officer. She does not need to be in the military to do Intel...

She applied to Hastings, her LSAT only 145, (never has been great at standardized tests)
GPA 3.9, recommendation letters from professors, lawyers and a superior court judge.

dont despair. there are many fine schools. a good school will recognize that she is a good student regardless of the meaningless LSAT. certainly a 3.9 indicates a strong work ethic. LSAT indicates absolutely zilch

fact is, if she WANTS to be a lawyer, she wont let a 145 stop her from getting the legal education. she will fight on until victory is achieved

Those are good attributes for lawyering.

Also good to be competitive, able to think ahead/strategize/deal w/ uncertainty (chess, decision trees), have aggressive/confrontational streak (that can turn on and off), and deal w/ pressure/deadlines/time management.

Finally, want to be able to deal well w/ losing (battles) w/out losing confidence/motivation (to fight the war).

As she progresses, ability to comfort/console/schmooze/sell/get clients becomes increasingly important (if in private firm).

+1

Its a good "fit" for my daughters attributes:)

She is mendacious?

Mendacious: Untruthful, dishonest, lying. (I had to look it up)
She is the complete polar oppositeSmileWavy

she is an alcoholic? :p

Sorry 126, I wasn't trying to be facetious, but more a tonge in cheek reply as I knew there were several lawyers who post here and they've provided some great input for you and your daughter.

Although, my question is valid; I often get asked by the kids that I teach business to; as well as my own kids and alot of parents about careers and career choices. There must be a million and one thoughts on the entire process I'm sure.

If we take a look around the world, we'll see that everyone is different and thank God for that, so nobody is going to think the same, although we live in a society were we think we all should think the same? We need the contrast; we need lawyers, architects, engineers and yes, even real estate agents; ha. So when we have the opportunity to provide input for a young adult to make a choice about a career, we must respect the fact that we're all different and we're all going to choose different paths. Ain't it great.

My first question to your daughter would be; "What is it about a Lawyer's life style that you like so much?" You want to be a lawyer, so you must consider the time that's involved, what kind of pay is available, how will it fit into future plans of your family, how does it suit your retirement goals or senior life lifestyle goals. I would encourage a young person to figure out if their career choice is (A) recreating the wheel with something NEW? or (B) doing something that is already being done? Most cases, the career will be fashioned after something that is already being done; such as a lawyer.

With the option of (B), then I would suggest that the young person seek out other lawyers that they would like to pattern their life after; maybe even find a mentor in the field of choice through the process. Find out what it takes to "become" the lawyer, find out how it goes and how it ends. Take a look at their lifestyles and see what kind of lifestyle the career offers. Do the lawyers have loving, caring relationships and happy families. Do they have a balance in their lives of wealth, health, family, spiritual and mental development. If "lawyer" is actually the choice of career and it's not a recreating the wheel career, then they should be able to find at least one role model from that industry?

Thus my question, Why a lawyer?

Keep in mind, the young person may be inspired to do the career differently than others, which is what I do somewhat; however, there will always be role models for career choices and using these role models we can determine which direction we want to choose for our own happiness and joy.

The biggest thing that I want for my children (father of 5) is for them to be happy. Everything else is secondary. Sometimes being happy means you experience the contrast of life, finding out what you like and don't like, which leads to making more choices in the areas of what you like. It's personal and different for every person, but the choices we make, we must learn to live with; so young person, make your choices wisely.

Sorry for my brief initial post :) Good luck with your daughter, I'm sure she will do very well.