BART Shooting

[competentone]

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

But I do know he killed a handcuffed kid.

You really need to look at the videos more carefully.

(But I doubt your lynch-mob mind really wants to understand what happened....)

Edit: And since when did we start describing 22-year-olds, who are out (drinking? and fighting?) late into the night, as "kids"?

Your choice of the word "kid" tells me you want to put your particular slant on this rather than seriously try to understand exactly what happened.

[ikarcuaso]

Originally Posted by Jeff Higgins

Too bad the videos are already out. It would have been interesting to see what the cops would have said in their official report had they been unaware of the videos. I'm sure it would have been presented as a life and death struggle with an armed lunatic, that they were all lucky to survive. Conflicting statements from the other "armed and dangerous" suspects would be summarily brushed aside.

This is 100% right. We've seen it time and again, and this is why there is so much distrust for law enforcement. There were actually several hours between the BART incident and when the videos came out, and the cover up by BART was already in motion.

How many criminals have been released after years of incarceration because DNA evidence proved they weren't guilty? (and many more will be, as more of these cases are pending review) And how many of these cases involved false police reports, false testimony by cops, fabricated evidence, etc?

I'm not trying to paint cops with a broad brush, but when some are bad, the stain is widespread. Absolutely, cops s/b held to the highest, most stringent standards. It's a good thing that DNA, video and other technologies are moving us in a direction where these higher standards will be better upheld, but for many, it is too late.

I don't think Mehserle's intentions can be assumed with certainty. Sadly, we may never know. But it is clear in this case - he NEVER should have reached for his gun.

[Nine17]

Originally Posted by ikarcuaso

But it is clear in this case - he NEVER should have reached for his gun.

That is FAR from clear. The Fruitvale BART station and the surrounding area are notorious for shootings by addled thugs carrying illegal concealed firearms. If you're really from Oakland you should know that very well. Add in drunken New Year's revelers itching for a fight and tired cops on forced overtime and it's an accident waiting to happen. I'm amazed at all the cop-haters here -- the same kind of people who want to wander the streets drunk, smoke pot, and get in fights with people who "disrespect" them but who bay like dogs about the lousy 9-1-1 response when one of these thugs steals their car or tries to come into their home. Murder is the premeditated and intentional killing of a human being. Negligent homicide is something else -- usually a matter for a civil suit rather than a criminal prosecution. The only thing that is clear from all the public hysteria is that we all WISH that Officer Mehserle had never reached for his gun the way that he did. I'm sure that he does too.

[ZLP]

Originally Posted by competentone

I'd love to see how some of the people who are being so critical of the police officer in this incident, behaved if they were undergoing firearms training on a FATS-type system.

Even though they'd know they were on a simulator, I'd be willing to bet that ALL of them would end up shooting an innocent person in more than one scenario (most of the scenarios are reenactments of real situations).

It is so easy to "Monday morning quarterback" such a situation; it's a hell of a lot different when you're the one in the thick of the situation when it's unfolding.

When I went through the academy if you shot even one bystander in the simulator, you failed.

[Christien]

Originally Posted by competentone

But how can you concluded that this one incident proves the officer was "incompetent"?

Are you saying that competent people never make any mistakes?

If this was an unintentional discharge of the weapon, do we really know all the circumstances leading up to the incident? For example, how long had the officer been working? Was he required to work a double shift on New Year's Eve? Was he at the end of 16 hours on the job?

My comments are not meant to "defend" the officer -- my first reaction when I looked at the video was: "Damn, that looks like a bad shooting."

My posts are to the reaction of some here who seem to be willing to completely ignore some of the serious questions that need to be asked about this incident, and seem more than ready to form a lynch mob and string the officer up on the nearest tree.

Some seem to be asking, "Why hasn't this officer been executed yet?" Or seem ready to viciously attack anyone who suggests that this could be anything less than "premeditated murder."

It is amazing the way some can't even keep the facts straight from the video. One suspect is handcuffed; the shooting occurs as the police move to the second suspect and are attempting to handcuff him. This second suspect is the one who is shot. I do not see any clear indication that the decedent is handcuffed when he is shot, but I do see that one of his hands are free after being shot. This indicates to me that he was not handcuffed when he was shot, yet some commenting here apparently cannot differentiate between the first person who is clearly handcuffed -- and is not shot -- and the second person who is struggling (and from what I can see, has one hand cuffed) and is shot.

The responses from some here is the reason why we don't want "mob justice."

There will be a complete investigation of this shooting; I'll have more confidence in the conclusions of the investigators than either the conclusions some have drawn here, or my own initial reactions to the videos.

Of course I'm not saying competent people never make mistakes. But a mistake where you take someone's life is a pretty damn serious mistake. And any mistake involving a firearm should be cause for a review of that person's decision making abilities.

Look, the long and the short of it is that the VAST majority of police NEVER ONCE in their careers kill someone accidentally. If it happens, the cop is very probably incapable of the high standards we should and do hold police to due to either personal reasons or inadequate training.

The questions you raise are all very valid. (full stop, no "but") If he had indeed worked a double shift, 16 hour shift, etc. then maybe anyone in that position could make such an error. If such is the case then blame should be laid at the feet of the police force and perhaps their HR dept. Or maybe the city, or whomever provides funding, and clearly not enough of it, to staff the dept. adequately. Either way, a full review should figure this out and make corrections to ensure it never happens again. If it's the officer who is maybe an *********, racist, cowboy, rhoid-boy, whatever, he should be fired. If he was overworked, undertrained, etc. then the system should change to ensure they're adequately staffed and trained.

After this post of yours, I suspect we're actually much more in agreement than I previously thought.

[Christien]

Originally Posted by competentone

And who made the complaints and what was the final conclusion after any investigation of those complaints?

Two complaints for two years (if that is the amount of time the officer was employed) is a pretty clean record.

The low-lifes that officers have to deal with on a daily basis can be pretty quick to file complaints, but such complaints are usually frivolous and nothing more than a lame attempt by the low-lifes to get back at the officers when the officers had done nothing wrong.

This I have no idea about. It would seem to me that one complaint per year on average is high, though I do understand and appreciate low-lifes making frivolous complaints. I would think, however, that there would be some kind of filtration device in place, whereby the complaint is reviewed and, if found frivolous or baseless, it's tossed out and never becomes part of an officer's record. I should *hope* that's the way it's done.

[Christien]

Nine17, no info on this Provocative Act that makes drunk and disorderly a capital crime?

[BGCarrera32]

Originally Posted by Christien

This I have no idea about. It would seem to me that one complaint per year on average is high, though I do understand and appreciate low-lifes making frivolous complaints. I would think, however, that there would be some kind of filtration device in place, whereby the complaint is reviewed and, if found frivolous or baseless, it's tossed out and never becomes part of an officer's record. I should *hope* that's the way it's done.

Yes, you have no idea. There that confirms it.

I live in a suburb of Minneapolis with 50,000 people.
2007 Police, Fire, Medical assitance calls = 48,000. Police dept. responds to all medical and fire.

50 coppers on the force.

And you think 1 complaint per year is *high*? Ahhh no.

[SLO-BOB]

Originally Posted by competentone

You really need to look at the videos more carefully.

Damn. You're right. My lynch mob mind thought they got the cuffs on him. Now I see why the killer cop, and probably the other three cops on top of the face down "kid" , were nervous. Hell, I would have shot him too! Thanks for clearing that up.

(But I doubt your lynch-mob mind really wants to understand what happened....)

Yes. Please stop trying to enlighten me with your scholarly observations on the killing of an unarmed kid. STOP........can't....take...it...too much intellect.....and self.....righteous.....indignation.....ugh...

Edit: And since when did we start describing 22-year-olds, who are out (drinking? and fighting?) late into the night, as "kids"?

Since I had one about 22 years ago.

Your choice of the word "kid" tells me you want to put your particular slant on this rather than seriously try to understand exactly what happened.

You got me. I'm the spin-meister. Give the cop a medal.

[Moses]

Not trying to justify the shooting at all, but...

I heard that Oscar Grant had a dozen criminal convictions and a few stints in prison. In fact he was released just 4 months before the shooting. Busy young man if that's true.

[Moses]

From Wikipedia:

KPIX-TV reported Grant had a criminal record and served time at state prison in 2007 and 2008 and was involved in twelve cases between April 2004 and May 2008.[9] Grant, who had also been convicted of drug dealing, had been sentenced to 16 months in state prison in 2007 after he fled from a traffic stop while armed with a loaded pistol.[6] Grant was most recently released from prison September 23, corrections officials said. A lawyer representing his family said that Grant had being doing well in recent months and that his record was irrelevant to the BART shooting because the cop was not aware of it when he opened fire.[6]

Again, not an explanation in itself.

[competentone]

Originally Posted by Moses

From Wikipedia:

KPIX-TV reported Grant had a criminal record and served time at state prison in 2007 and 2008 and was involved in twelve cases between April 2004 and May 2008.[9] Grant, who had also been convicted of drug dealing, had been sentenced to 16 months in state prison in 2007 after he fled from a traffic stop while armed with a loaded pistol.[6] Grant was most recently released from prison September 23, corrections officials said. A lawyer representing his family said that Grant had being doing well in recent months and that his record was irrelevant to the BART shooting because the cop was not aware of it when he opened fire.[6]

Again, not an explanation in itself.

Stop trying to cloud this issue with any "irrelevant" facts that might reflect on the character of Grant.

Haven't you read the thread?

It has already been concluded that Grant was just a 22-year-old "innocent kid" (I think he may have been on his way home for choir practice) who was brutally attacked by a gang of murdering-thug police officers. The officers "handcuffed him" then shot him execution-style in the back after planning the whole event hours before -- or at least that's what some here would appear to believe they can "see" from the grainy videos showing some angles of this incident.

I'll hold off on any final conclusions about what happened until a lot more careful investigation has been done, but I won't hold off on judging some of those here who have been exceedingly quick and vicious with their attacks against the police officers involved in this incident/shooting.

[competentone]

And since when did we start describing 22-year-olds, who are out (drinking? and fighting?) late into the night, as "kids"?

Originally Posted by SLO-BOB

Since I had one about 22 years ago.

So you are telling us you have a "loser" for a son?

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by competentone

I looked at the video frame by frame -- it looks like the officers got the hand cuffs on one hand, but the guy is still fighting and one hand is still free. I'll admit that the videos I have looked are poor, so I will stand corrected if I'm wrong.

Poor videos? The victim is CLEARLY laying face down, cuffed, and most importantly NOT resisting in any way. There is absolutely ZERO justification for ANY type of force to be applied at that time. None whatsoever. Nada. Zilch.

Originally Posted by competentone

I do find it disturbing the way people will sit behind their keyboards and be critical of officers in an extremely stressful situation. It is obvious some of you have never been on the streets in potentially dangerous situations.

Is this some kind of a joke?

What's disturbing to me is when someone who so clearly DOESN'T have any street or 'tactical' experience sits there and defends a cop who is so obviously and blatantly in the wrong. I mean seriously, this cop is 10 bells wrong. This is not just slightly over the line, this is blatantly over the top incompetent (or cold blooded, take your choice).

Are you really seriously defending the murderer who is caught red-handed on tape, or are you just screwing with us?

Gross misconduct/criminal negligence doesn't get any more clear or egregious than this. I guess some people hate the poor so much they'll make any excuse to justify the A) Cold blooded, or B) Grossly negligent shooting of one.

Replace the inner city darkie with a suburban white kid named Chad, and you'd be all over these cops, wouldn't you?

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by 125shifter

There was a similar incident in Houston last week. Fortunately the victim lived, unfortunately his future baseball career is probably over.

It appears the cop figured a black kid in a rich neighborhood must be up to no good and probably driving a stolen car. I guess the cop never figured he could be the son of a retired professional baseball player

His mother and father witnessed the shooting in their driveway.

http://cbs13.com/national/Robert.Tolan.shot.2.902245.html

The kid was asking for it, and had it coming to him. The poor traumatized racist white officer who was forced to blast an unarmed teen in his driveway and in front of both the violent teen offenders parents at point blank range should be given the full measure of our sympathy and support in this, his time of need....

[SLO-BOB]

Originally Posted by competentone

And since when did we start describing 22-year-olds, who are out (drinking? and fighting?) late into the night, as "kids"?


So you are telling us you have a "loser" for a son?

No. Did you say you were a douche?

[Christien]

Guys, let's keep the personal stuff out of this discussion. Competent, that comment was out of line, IMO. Just because my good buddy Nine17 started the personal stuff doesn't mean we all should follow suit.

[m21sniper]

Originally Posted by competentone

Stop trying to cloud this issue with any "irrelevant" facts that might reflect on the character of Grant.

Haven't you read the thread?

It has already been concluded that Grant was just a 22-year-old "innocent kid" (I think he may have been on his way home for choir practice) who was brutally attacked by a gang of murdering-thug police officers. The officers "handcuffed him" then shot him execution-style in the back after planning the whole event hours before -- or at least that's what some here would appear to believe they can "see" from the grainy videos showing some angles of this incident.

I'll hold off on any final conclusions about what happened until a lot more careful investigation has been done, but I won't hold off on judging some of those here who have been exceedingly quick and vicious with their attacks against the police officers involved in this incident/shooting.

Save your smart assed comments sport, because the sarcasm laced nonsense you posted above is a nothing more than a diversionary attempt to deflect attention that you're completely wrong.

Blatantly, obviously, completely.

Wrong.

There is no justification for shooting a face down and cuffed NON RESISTING suspect. None. Nada. Zilch. Zero.

The cop in question immediately resigned and has been dodging police interviewers. Even HE knows he's dead wrong.

But not you.

[competentone]

Originally Posted by m21sniper

Poor videos? The victim is CLEARLY laying face down, cuffed, and most importantly NOT resisting in any way. There is absolutely ZERO justification for ANY type of force to be applied at that time. None whatsoever. Nada. Zilch.

This comment I made earlier was with you in mind:

It is amazing the way some can't even keep the facts straight from the video. One suspect is handcuffed; the shooting occurs as the police move to the second suspect and are attempting to handcuff him. This second suspect is the one who is shot. I do not see any clear indication that the decedent is handcuffed when he is shot, but I do see that one of his hands are free after being shot. This indicates to me that he was not handcuffed when he was shot, yet some commenting here apparently cannot differentiate between the first person who is clearly handcuffed -- and is not shot -- and the second person who is struggling (and from what I can see, has one hand cuffed) and is shot.

[SLO-BOB]

Originally Posted by Christien

Guys, let's keep the personal stuff out of this discussion. Competent, that comment was out of line, IMO.
.

C'mon, he's just getting warmed up. The mother jokes are due in soon.