George, most of what is seen in that pic is methane emitted by humans, and it is caused by hundreds of thousands of locals eating granola, tofu, and frequenting taco stands.

Edited - personal attack removed. -Z-man. ...the Nazis killed many millions of innocent people. We sent huge numbers of soldiers, navy and airmen over there to stop them.

DO you get it??

I converted electronic ignition to pilot light on home heating system.

I r&r hot water heater zinc rod every 10 years. Check out your new heater zinc after 5 years.

Edited - Z-man. Go immediately to your dictionary and look up "hyperbole."

Then chill out.

This is about unnecessarily ridiculously priced enviro-nazi water heaters, not about you getting offended at someone making fun of people like you wanting everybody to pay ridiculous prices in a futile attempt to make every cubic foot of air pristine and pure. :p :D

Ok, I just bought one for an old client this afternoon. Its 480 bucks for a 40 gallons heater. Not sure if its worth double the price of a heater just 2 years ago. and hell no, I didn't pull a permit. As the workman loaded the truck, the sales rep tole me that people are trying to get as mamy miles as they can out of their heaters by changing whatever it is that they can to get another few months out of it. That hurts their pocket books a bit in terms of sales. Heck maybe californis want to take everyone down the gutter with them. I was pissed at the title 24 regulations, now this, F#@%!

Calm down Francis. Besides, a bunch of officials pushing their agenda by force onto the general populace does have a bit of Nazi flair to it.

This is what happens when you have politicians trying to influence science.

The amount of NOx generated in methane hot water heaters is probably not worth counting. And I'll bet it is small compared to the cars.

Usually to reduce NOx, you pre-mix the air and run to the far end of the lean ratio. The problem in most of the power gen equipment where we do this is that the ignition reliability is lower. So your extra expensive, low NOx water heater may not actually heat water as reliably.

Say, didn't California outlaw charcoal BBQs as well?

Making environmental regulations and sausage are not for the weak at heart.

What the danger is in the current California environmental regulatory setting climate is there is going to be a huge financial reaction (already going on) that has the potential to set back the gains of environmental protection. I am absolutely not saying that the environmental movement has not put in place significant regulations that have profound benefits, it is the extent that is currently being driven. How clean is clean? What are the reasonable threshold amounts of pollutants that are realistic?

There are a number of factors that are driving this. The least of which is economic gain. Lets take water for example. When the standards are set to minimize risk for a faction of society that engages in a risky life style, such as autoimmune compromised individuals, why for the life of me do we set the standard for that small of a faction of society. This is what is currently done. This is a cause for the construction of incredibly expensive modifications to water treatment plants. Why not set the level to accommodate the general population and have those that are engaging in the risky lifestyle modify their home systems to accommodate their SPECIAL requirement? This is essentially charging the general population for the behavior of those that have freely chosen the risky lifestyle.

If anything better illustrates the absolute arrogance of the California regulatory agencies it is the Regional and State Water Quality Control Boards. They have had two cases whereby the were assessed punitive damages for their behavior and nothing has been implemented to stop this reckless behavior. See Morango Band of Mission Indians v State Water Quality Control Board and the Quinitero Decision. These practices in the administrative law arena are what the State uses to further its wrath on individuals and entities to comply with unfounded regulations. The structure of the administrative law and its implementation by the executive branch, i.e. Cal EPA, repeatedly deny due process to the citizens of the state of California. Coupled with the scientific communities sharp criticism of the State and Regional Boards lack of scientific application in rule setting, this is most disturbing. Stay tuned for what the California Supreme Court rules on Morongo.

Vote with your feet. It ain't worth it.

Something is seriously wrong if it is cheaper to live and do business in Hawaii, than California!

When did GREEN not mean GREEN?

Hello Mr. and Mrs. Smith,
This is a GREEN built home.... which means you'll be paying some extra GREEN backs!

It's gonna come with zee big price tag.

Sadly, I believe you are right. It is sad when the place where you grew up is the place you seriously choose to leave. It is a hard decision.

go complain to CARB - whining on the internet is not effective

Don't tell me that regs. by an admin. agency is anything akin to murdering millions

what a wanker!

Some quick reading indicates that water heating accounts for 31% of CA residential greenhouse gas ("GHG") emissions, it is the single biggest residential source.

7-8% of existing residential water heaters are replaced annually, so in 13 years the whole fleet is turned over. High-efficiency water heaters are appx 60% more energy-efficient and lower-emissions than the average existing water heater. So raising standards for residential water heaters could reduce residential emissions and decrease residential energy consumption by appx 10% in appx 13 years.

Its is just a small step, but that's how we have to address energy efficiency and greenhouse gas emissions, through many small steps.

I doubt high-efficiency low-NOX water heaters are going to be $500 permanently. They certainly don't cost that much more to make. As more states and regions adopt the low-NOX rules, the prices will come down.

Interestingly, on tankless water heater there is a $300 federal tax credit. If I'm reading right, in OR I could get the federal $300 plus a state 25% credit - on a $1,000 water heater that's $450 net plus lower monthly utility bills. I think in CA there is only the federal credit. Well, when I have to replace my water heater that's something to think about.

By the way, the idea that cow farts accounts for most of California's greenhouse gas emissions is bogus. Here are the sources of GHG in the state.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/cc/inventory/data/forecast.htm

Looks like livestock is about 3% of the state's GHG, that's primarily from 5MM cows.

As for the idea for human farts account for most of California's GHG, that is even dumber. Some searching (took awhile because much blocking by the content filter here) shows that a cow emits 400X more flatulence gas than a human. So humans would be 0.05% of California's GHG.

Nice work John.

NOX is a smog causing element, as far as I know. So, if you reduce that in a city like L.A., it will have a very big impact. Of course, a solar water heater would be even better - zero (local) emissions. Then back it up with a clean gas heater for the "cold" months.

George

I would not hang your hat on this data. It is based on models by the ARB Staff. Many of these staffies are not true scientists. IF this is based on the assumptions of the climate change models for global warming there is a real problem with it. This seems exactly the type of crap that lacks ANY scientific verification found with the water quality board. It would take a tremendous amount of time to disprove it but I have little faith in the environmental regulation setting process in California. Where is the certainty matrix? Where is the level of risk? What are the assumptions? I am not a betting man, but I would bet that many of these studies do not contain these controls nor is there any basis, as in the STATISTICs for the establishment of water quality standards. One of the things that I used to think was that California led the way in environmental science and understanding, but I do not think that for one moment anymore. Why for the grace of god does the federal government establish a standard and California for some unknown reason have to take it to a level beyond that. CA is in trouble due to these methods, and for the most part they are based on opinion and emotion and NOT SCIENCE.

I don't know if the data is precise. There can always be errors in estimation. But I seriously doubt the ARB is making up its numbers. It isn't hard for federal and state agencies to estimate how many residential households there are, what pct use gas-fired water heaters, the life of a typical water heater, how much gas is consumed in an average day, and what emissions per typical water heater. And it certainly isn't hard for an agency to compare efficiency of a newer high-efficiency water heater versus a typical older one.

Looking at the other data in the table, agencies have good data on typical emissions from 18-wheelers (the EPA, ARB, and manufacturers test them, after all) and miles driven, and so on for the various sources.

So I would consider this ARB data as the best we have in this thread, unless someone wants to come up with better. I mean, credible better data, not ridiculous claims that SoCal's smog is due to humans eating beans.

For purposes of this thread, it doesn't matter if the new water heaters are precisely 50% or 70% more efficient. The point is that replacing old-design water heaters with new ones that burn 1/3 less nat gas, done over a decade, will reduce energy consumption and emissions by a substantial amount. Do you dispute that?

Dan - why not file a public records act request and get all the docs?

Are you kidding? The Edited -Z, as you aptly describe him, is a fine, upstanding, scripture-spouting "Christian man" who is a compassionate and caring citizen, wanting only to bring to our attention the fact that we are being raped by our Nazi politicians.

But, then again, he DOES long for the days when dispicable, *******, filthy hippie, protesters were dealt with in the manner of the Kent State Massacre. But hey, nobody's perfect!

Installing a new H2O heater should not require a Permit - it's "maintenance", not new work.

City of LA might have some goofy ordinance specific to water heaters that I'm not aware of, but as a general rule if it's maintenance it doesn't need a Permit (and believe me, I've seen a few guys really stretch the definition of this and get away with it).

It may be considered maintenance, but it is in our building code that list fees for various type of construction, and installing a new water heater requires a permit at $40.00. Don't know about L.A. but the city of "It's not gonna happen" has it own building code, we do not use the IBC or BOCA code. To see how rediculous it is here, there is a separate additional tax on bottle water.