Anyone ever move a floor?
 

My wife and I are buying an old Bungalow -- built in 1927. It's got these great high ceilings on the main floor, like 12 feet high. The upstairs, unfortunately, is unusably small -- because of the super-high ceiling on the main floor, the upstairs is all scrunched up into the roof line.

So in an alcohol-induced state of wild creativity, one of us suggested moving the floor. Tear out the entire upstairs (it's not finished, no great loss), pull up the floors (hard wood, dimensional lumber floor joists, everything), remove the main floor walls, and rebuilt the interior so it makes sense.

Now ... we can't afford to live somewhere else while it'd be happening, so we'd have to live in the garage, or the basement, either of which would be a crazy experience. We've talked it over and think that the stress is worth it. I'm more concerned about the feasibility -- can I build ledger boards into the original outer walls of the house? Will the County Permitting Office have me arrested for Constructing Under the Influence?

Anyone ever do anything like this? Is it just too crazy? Are there resources for people like us?

Thanks,
Dan

Alcoholics Anon?:)

lmao

The second floor that you are refering to is probably the attic and was never intended to be livable space. The floor joists for the second floor are probably not capable of supporting the current load requirement for habitable space in a home. Integrating a new floor system into the existing house will be the major problem that needs to be reviewed and resolved.

Resource? Look in the Yellow page under A for ARCHITECT.

The rafters can be reinforced to support living space. If the roof peak is tall enough to stand, dormers can give the rest of the attic headroom. If that doesn't work, I would live with what you have, expand the house via an addition, or buy a different house. What you're hoping to do sounds like far too much work and expense to be practical.

why couldn't it be done?
what is the span?
what is the anticipated loads?
the easiest way to go about it would be to use balloon framing, if it's still allowed.



Disclaimer: i'm no architect but i did drink beer last night.

SmileWavy

Of course it can be done. Anything is possible. But, factor in removal and replacement of drywall, flooring, the mess, all of the rough framing, all of the finish work, the electrical, the plumbing, the heating and you would probably save money by tearing it down and rebuilding.

Just keep drinking and dim the lights. It will look better as is. ;)

Its a 12 step process! first step is admitting that you want to move the floor and you are powerless to do so!

Just Tear it down and build a McMansion, and flip it afterward.

Oops it's no longer 2006.

Unless, you're after one of those couple-bonding "we've come through this together" experiences . . .

Go back to school for another six years, work for peanuts as an apprentice under a license architect, take your state board and you too could become an Architect.

"built in 1927" ... That means (usually) that the ceiling and floor joists for the second floor are actually the collar ties that hold the roof rafters together. In modern roofing systems a trussed rafter is used. This ties the two angled parts of the rafter to the bottom part (the collar tie) with load supporting members that transfer the roof load between the upper and bottom plates. With your roofing system by removing the ceiling/floor joists for the second floor you would put all the roof load on to the outside walls causing the roof to sag and your walls to bow outward. If you have any roof load (any snow or a couple layers of shingles) you might end up living in the basement for a long time as there won't be any house left when the walls fall in.

I had to help a friend a couple of years ago who bought a house and the PO decided that the bottom plate in the garage (trussed roof) needed to go to make more head room. The walls were bowed out almost 4" each way. We put a 2" X 10" X 16' on each outside wall and then used two come-a-longs attached to the board via 3/8" aircraft cable to slowly pull the walls back to plumb. Then we reframed the trusses back in place. How the garage passed the PPI I'll never know.

This not to say that it can't be done. Anything can be done with enough time and money.

My advise is live in the house as it is. This way you can have friends over to drink beer and enjoy life. After a few yrs you can buy the house you want.

You'll have to rebuild the stairs, most likely, unless you move the floor down exactly one riser. AFA collar ties, they can be added temporarily.

Could you consider doing a part of the upper floor with a step up into the original area? The dormer idea sounds great. Lastly, how many interior walls are affected? All the upstairs will have to be rebuilt, so finding out what the bearing wall(s) situation consists of is necessary.

Rather than move the floor, move the roof!

Considering everything you've told us;...... have another drink. ;)

My advice would also be to raise the ceiling. Most older homes either need a new roof...or will soon anyways and additional insulation. Had a former Pelican in NC (Procon) rennovate my 1927 house in NC about a year ago. It came out great. I had him put in a new roof and reframe the ceiling to make it vaulted for more height. Maybe you should call or email him for advice. He might even be willing to do the work if in between jobs. His crew is fast and reasonably priced.

Of course it possible, an engineer or architect would have to do some calcs etc though.

After all I jacked up my house in Vermont, left it on cribbing while I had a basement poured, then landed the house on the new basement ;)

just takes money

Heaven help you if they pour you a basement. The more water you add to concrete the weaker it becomes. If the concrete came out of the concrete truck like soup it means that someone added water to it so that they can pour your concrete.

As a license architect I would rather have them "place the concrete" instead of "pour the concrete". You don't want to know how many cement load I rejected because the slump was too low.

OK semantics, pour, place....whatever.

As a licensed engineer, PE, I'm quite familiar with concrete and its characteristics. Additionally the basement to my house was pumped concrete, modified with a plasticizer.

Most people don't discern between pour and place.. and many times concrete operations are referred to as "pours"

I posted a thread the other day showing some pictures of one of the jobs I supervised...

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/451702-engineers-construction-guys-geeks-too.html

and here are a few pics of another job which I have run..Supervised construction of 14 bridges in the LIE/CIP interchange reconstruction.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232312937.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232313009.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232313025.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232313046.jpg

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232313068.jpg


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232313103.jpg


[/hijack mode]

Point is you can do most anything given enough thought and enough money..

I think Fints idea of leaving the floor and "raising the roof" has merit

That idea is used all the time, it's call adding a second floor to a home, although I would demo the old roof and just have a new roof install. Modern roof trusses are so much more efficient than old roof rafters and a lot cheaper.

I would prefer to see pictures before commenting, but anything is possible.

Adding a dormers or raising the roof is the best suggestion so far. Pictures please.

Thanks for all the replies -- I'll post pictures in a bit. The best pictures, of course, will come after closing.

A little more information:
- The original footprint of the house is only 24x28, so it's not monumentally large. Milt -- good thinking only doing part of it, but it's small enough that it wouldn't make sense to only do half, or something. I'll bounce it off my wife, but I think if we're going to go, we'll go all the way.
- The roofing is relatively new, and looks great from the outside. From the inside, the timbers look to be in decent shape, but the joints may be showing their age. Perhaps replacing the roof is a good plan?
- Asbestos siding makes any work on the exterior of the house prohibitively expensive. While some work will eventually be necessary, I'd like to avoid crossing that bridge any sooner than I have to. There's also vermiculite insulation, though, so that's still problematic.
- The bearing wall situation is really simple: the house has a single central beam down the long axis, 28 feet long. It splits the house into 2 twelve foot halves. (My suspicion is that the builder got a deal on 12' lumber.) The bearing wall for the main floor clearly sits on this central axis, and divides the main floor cleanly in half. The central beam has seen better days: someone sistered in a newer beam alongside it, and sistered in supports for the basement posts. This is obviously work that will need to be redone correctly.

GWN7 -- you sound like you've got real experience with this. And looking at the construction of the house, I suspect you're right. We'd have to figure out how to hold the roof together, if we pulled the floor out. I've seen cables used to do that, but I suppose that's not the right way to do it. What if we used cables for a short-term solution, then went back and rebuilt the roof 10 years from now when it needs it? We could use reasonably modern roof trusses, and maybe get away with it?

Fint -- I'll send procon an e-mail -- if there's someone who's comfortable working on a house of this age, it might make a lot of sense to pay the costs for his experience. Thanks for the reference.

I'll end up hiring a pro to at least come at look at the site to discuss options. My wife is a nanny, and knows a whole collection of interesting professionals, one of whom is an architect. We can probably get some basic ideas for the cost of a Friday night of babysitting.

Dormers may be the simplest option, but they also provide the least reward. As you can see, there's already one, and it barely helps. We could add another on the other side, and enlarge the first. ... Much as I hate to admit it, it might be the only option in our price range.

Thanks for all the insightful comments, everyone.

Dan



PS -- some pictures. I can provide more once I close on the house, and have a few more shots that I took during the home inspection.

--Inside the crawl space / attic
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232330484.jpg

--Inside the crawl space / attic
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232330510.jpg

--From the front
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232330580.jpg

Dan... I apologize for the little hi-jack up there ^^

I live in a house built in the mid 20's..in 1920's

The first two pictures you posted could be in my house...

Is that daylight I see in pic one? :p

One thing to consider since you say you will stay in the house during construction... you need to go up!! dormer etc.... if you pull out and change the elevation of a floor... the house will be unlivable for a period

What is the headroom at the center of the attic, under the ridge of the roof?

Are there permanent stairs to the attic? If it is reached by pull-down ladder etc, is there room to put permanent stairs?

I'm thinking, find the least expensive alternative that allows you to finish the attic as a master suite w/ bath. For that use, you don't need standing headroom everywhere, e.g. not over the bed.

Dormers would be cheapest and you could certainly live in the house during the work. New roof structure, with higher ridge and either steeper and/or gambrel (barn roof) style would be significantly more expensive. Lowering the floor would be way more expensive, not really practical IMO.

For each option, figure out how much you will have into the house, and how that squares with market values in the neighborhood. Don't want to over-improve and/or invest more than will get out.

If you wanted to post a floorplan w/ dimensions, I'm sure you'd get some good ideas.

Oh, the other place to look for more living space, is the basement. What is headroom to joists there, is it dry, is floor dirt or concrete or?

After looking at the photos, I think the best option is dormers. Expand the existing one and put one on the oposite side. That is if there was a dedicated stairway to the second floor already.

This would enable you to move the master bedroom to that space and add a second bathroom. It appears to be the most cost effective means of adding living space.

If you take the roof off and add a second story you will need to have the foundation certified that it will handle the extra load. Not to mention you will have to get approval to do so. Is there existing two story homes in the neibourhood? If not they might not approve the request. As there is a existing dormer you will get approval easier to add another one.

If you want to lower the ceiling height on the main floor (as per your first post) the roof will have to come off and you will have to gut the interior of the house. A new floor (for the second floor) will have to be attached to the outside walls which means rebuilding the ouside wall supports. Very expensive and very stressfull if you and your wife have to live in the basement like mole people for 6 months.

TimT -- I suspect it is, in fact, daylight. Project #1 is closing the house to the elements. Blech.

JYL, the roof is 12' on each side, so the ridge height is about 10'. Inside the "finished" space, it's approx. 6' head height in the middle, and slopes down to about 4' on the sides.
The stairs up are permanent, but were probably also not part of the original design. It looks like a bedroom closet was gutted to make room for the stairs. We're thinking that it would be nice if we could move the floors, but making the structure of the house continue to work with the stairs somewhere else could be an interesting challenge.
The basement has 6' head height in most places, with a concrete floor. It's really more of a cellar than it is a basement. It will never be approved as living space because of that low height.

GWN7 -- thanks for the information. There are existing two story homes in the neighborhood, but only one or two. One other idea might be to ask the neighbors what they've done -- there are a couple of other houses in the neighborhood that are the same model, so perhaps those owners could provide some wisdom. I definitely like the idea of less struggle getting permission -- rumor has it that the Gaithersburg permitting office is somewhat draconian.


I think the collective wisdom of the board has spoken: dormers, not moving the floor. I'll make up a floor plan in a bit and post it to solicit floor plan improvement opinions.


So to hijack my own thread ... One of the interesting things about this house is that it's a kind of forensic construction project. No construction work has been done in the last 30-40 years, so everything has that old patina on it. But some work is obviously not from 1927 -- like the stairs, or the kitchen addition. The kitchen is obviously NOT from 1927, but the stove says "Kitchenaid, made in America by General Motors Corporation" on the front, in neat little script. It's a treasure in its own right.

Don't what you (or local code) think about spiral stairs. I think they are cool and save lot of space.

Ooof, if literally just 6' headroom at the tallest point of the attic, that's not helpful.

Anyone ever tried breaking out all/part of a basement concrete floor, digging out 3 feet, and re-pouring the floor? Natural light could come from large window wells, a sunken exterior door/stair, even a sunken (below-grade) patio area, opening to back yard. Some of our friends have such a set up. With well-placed artificial lighting inside and rain protection overhead, can make a very nice space. Don't know what water table/drainage situation is in your area, or about costs. Might be a feasible project if you have a strong back.

Actually I plan to build out basement in our house, will need the large window wells too. Project on hold.

TimT, any idea where Hoffa's resting?

The basement idea is great, but I don't think this house is worth it. I mean, it's a nice 1927 bungalow with a lot of neat little features, but ... it's not worth that kind of effort to modernize it. We'll tear down the kitchen/breakfast-nook addition and rebuild it before we dig up the basement.

Dan

That is pretty much what Procon did to my house that I mentioned earlier except I did not have a concrete pad before...just wood on dirt. He pulled the old floor, dug out the dirt to an appropriate level and poured a new foundation. He added a set of stairs that were an "L" shape that did not waste too much space. He was able to add some large windows for light. It is on a hill so the lower level is a walk out. In the 24x24 space, he was able to add 2 bedrooms, a full bath, laundry room, and a mechanical room for the hot water and HVAC.

The problem with hand digging out a dugout type basement is the footing walls. They usually only extend down below grade 2'-4'. If you dig out the basement there is no support for those walls and the weight of the house will cause them to push inwards as there will no longer be anything holding them in place on one side. You can leave 4' of earth (braced) on the inside to support the outside walls, but that sort of defeats the purpose of creating living space down there. Then there is the 224 cubic yards of material your going to hand bomb out in pails (24X28X3/9) That's about 2700 5gal pails of dirt to lug. Cancel your gym membership, you won't need it while your digging. :)

Easier and safer to lift the house off the basement. Move it back, demolish the existing basement. Dig and build a new basement and then move the house back on to it. If space is a restriction on moving the house, it can be lifted and a new basement can be built under the house.

I don't know if it was mentioned, but I see a reason for the low 2nd story ceilings. That's a single story house with a converted attic.

My old house...Before:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232396335.jpg

After (with vaulted ceiling):


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1232396375.jpg