HVAC forum. not for the DIY'r

T77911S · 03-11-2009, 03:55 AM

yesterday i found this HVAC site. started reading some of the stuff, all their solutions were " find a good local contractor". i started to see a trend of this, unless the the topic was something like, trane is better than lennox, no carrier is better, well you know the story. finally i read a comment that i HAD to sign up and say something, you know me, cant keep my mouth shut. well, this guy said that if he came to your house and found a leak and you would not fix it now, he would remove all the freon and condemn the unit because of safety and liability. i was not the only one that jumoed him about that statement. anyway, when i signed up i found the "no DIY'ers", this is our job statement. its a good thing that JW or any of the other pro's on here dont have that attitude.
this site gave me a very untrusting feeling about HVAC tech's.
they had other sayings on there too. like,"pay me know or pay me later". that was intended for the DIY'r that scewed it up. it kinda reminded of the used car salesmen and their little black book that only THEY could look at, you know, the one that they used to offer you $1000 for $10000 trade in.
there were a few DIY'r, but only very general Q's and the answer was still quite often followed with find a contractor.
i was thinking about this, yea, they want to make a living, but people also want to save money, so if i am taking food off their plate by doing it myself, arent they taking food off my plate by charging me for work that i, or you, could do with a little assistance? besides, there really arent that many out there that will try to work their AC.
by the way, $12k was the estimate i got for replacing a 4 ton unit and duct a few years back. a guy at work paid 10k for his unit. i had to put a few pounds in mine yesterday, i guess it will have to limp along a little longer. i priced a goodman at about $3200.

Scuba Steve · 03-11-2009, 05:59 AM

I've seen that forum too when searching for troubleshooting info. Not a big fan either. I can understand someone wanting to protect what they do, but really a lot of that stuff involves special tooling anyway when it comes to the heavy work. It's a terrible attitude for them to have if only because sharing the knowledge would make consumers smarter and less likely to be smoked by a contractor coming in saying they need an expensive repair when it's unnecessary. Even if you're not going to fix something yourself it's still good to know what the likely culprits are so you won't fall for a big lie or scam.

rick-l · 03-11-2009, 07:26 AM

This is why $500 to install a $25 part in 15 minutes.

If you deal with chemistry, electronics, motors and thermodynamics every day the operation of a furnace seems pretty obvious. I guess they need to protect all these trade secrets.

porsche4life · porsche4life's Garage

Trust me I know several of these guys. It ain't rocket science or they would not still be in business.

Gogar · 03-11-2009, 12:25 PM

I once belonged to a "Hammond B3 Organ" listserv that was very similar. Many techs on that list were very secretive about their dying art. Others were not. I made a few good connections there and met some really great techs (who since I have given thousands of dollars for advice and work on my gear.) Then I banned myself.

I should've known it was gonna be tough when I almost got banned for suggesting that listserv was a very inefficient, outdated method of communication.

T77911S · 03-11-2009, 02:50 PM

drummer/guitar player here, mostly drums lately. we had a B3 with the lesli at church. i saw it over at a friends shop the other day, did not ask what was up, think maybe they just were not using it any more, by the way, we have a rockin band there, some of the best musicians in town, especially since i dont play there anymore, lol.

you all nailed it, it aint rocket science, but its not something anybody should mess with, 240v and hi pressure dont mix well.
i think its a big trust issue with those guys, i already had a very untrusting feeling about them and getting on their site did not help that. they are only hurting themselves. they can still help the home owner and have plenty of business.
i maintain several at work. we have 5ton to 20 ton plus a water chilled unit, i hope that one does not break because im screwed if it does.
i had a problem with one of the big units, got one circuit (dual compressors) working, the other would not. i suspected a bad comp, but i have never changed one and wanted to make sure it was bad before buying a new one. so i called trane. robert (our trane guy) came out and verified the comp. he ordered a new one, i helped put it in, after it was in, we found the condensing coil was clogged. i told him (before we put the comp in)when i worked on it several months ago, it was acting like it had a clog, but was not sure. anyway, we now have a spare compressor and a brand new carrier.
so you see, even though i can work on them, i still got to a point that i thought it best to call a tech. the bill was around 18k. we are in the process of replacing the other trane. you should see the controls for the 2 units, one is stand by in case the other goes down. it is an over engineered box of relays. i think we got a price of $10K+ just for controls.

futuresoptions · 03-11-2009, 04:58 PM

Just purchased a 3 1/2 ton 13seer condensor and 4ton air handler... with digital thermostat total with tax...$1650..... prefer Heil equipment but went with Goodman.... basically it's almost all the same equipment... they mostly use the same brand of compressors etc... My Goodman has a Copeland scroll... so do the Ruuds, Rheems, etc... I will be installing myself. Will contract out the ductwork.... I am an HVAC Tech / Instructor, but hate the duct work side.... prefer troubleshooting/repair.....

legion · 03-11-2009, 05:42 PM

1) I want a Hammond B3. It's been on my wish list for over a decade.

2) I paid the local HVAC shop hundreds of dollars over two years to "fix" my furnace. The problem was that it would not reliably light. It had a spark, it had gas. It wouldn't always light. The problem got worse when it was colder.

I paid for a cleaning. I had a guy convince me that I needed a new controller unit. (Which I swapped back and returned when it did not fix the problem.)

Then while putting the furnace back together after cleaning the spark unit, I noticed that it sparked right up when I pressed on the flame box, but the flame went out when it stopped pressing.

I essentially had a vacuum leak. A $5 roll of silver tape later, the furnace has been problem free for over two years.

billybek · billybek's Garage

No, It ain't rocket science! The basics that a guy can use to diagnose and do some minor repairs are skills that cross all trades.
When your stuck though and you find a reliable guy or company to work on your stuff, you will see the value in a good tech or refrigeration mechanic.
Sure, they mark up the parts they sell you (who doesn't?) but what you want to watch for is the guy that comes in with the low labor rate and the full mark up on the parts. And believe me, they will sell you LOTS of parts!!!

T77911S · 03-12-2009, 03:55 AM

its really not even about the markup. its charging for stuff they dont do. i wonder how many actually clean an indoor coil when they do a service. they are usually a pain to get to.

Bill,
i have never installed either, but i cant afford 10k for someone to do it. i am even considering doing the duct. i have a ductulator and not affraid to use it. i would like some confermation on my design. i will see if i can post a drawing. it may be a while, got a lot going on.

lm6y · 03-12-2009, 05:02 AM

All furnaces come with a manual. Most I've seen come with two. One for the customer, which is VERY vague at best. The other has the tech stuff for the contractor. The tech one has all kinds of good info in it. Like the "Sequence of Events". It starts with the call for heat, and then every step after, until it shuts down. It even gives amp ratings, resistance ratings, all the good stuff. Makes it REALLY handy for diagnosis.

I would bet the A/C systems do too. But, as others have said, it isn't rocket science, and it works just like the A/C in your car. No magic wands needed. BUT high pressure refrigerant isn't something to fool with if you have any doubts.

In rick-l's old thread, I can't pay anyone $125 an hour unless the are re-starting my heart, or keeping me out of jail. I just can't do it.

Rot 911 · 03-12-2009, 05:39 AM

They aren't all bad. We have steam heat in our house and a couple of weeks ago it wouldn't ignite. I call the company that installed it. This was after 5 on a week night. Left a message with the answering service. The guy that actually installed the boiler 7 years ago calls me back. Once he realized I actually had some problem solving skills he talked me through some trouble shooting to narrow down what the problem was (bad low water sensor). He then came out the next day and replaced it saving me an after hours charge and the cost for him to trouble shoot.

rick-l · 03-12-2009, 06:00 AM

The other problem is there is only one supplier here that will sell you parts and they mark them up as much as Grainger.

Brian 162 · 03-12-2009, 06:20 PM

There's good and bad in every field. I work for a large HVAC company mainly installing boilers and domestic water heaters in commercial applications. I do service maybe 4 or 5 times a year on an on call basis. Most of the calls I get are customers that have a service plan so they are covered for parts and labour. For a non account you're looking at $125 just to show up then $125 per hour labour.

turbo6bar · 03-12-2009, 06:40 PM

Good and bad, like he says.

I browse hvac-talk forums occasionally. If a homeowner comes online and asks stupid questions, they are treated poorly. If a homeowner does some legwork and asks intelligent questions, they can get good advice.

77911S, get one of the load calc programs like hvac-calc. You can determine heat loss and gain and then size your hvac system properly. Then size your ductwork based on the flowrate. Add manual dampers at each branch, so you can balance the flow among the rooms. It is not brainy work, but it does eat man-hours, particulary if you do a good job sealing the joints.