Here is one for the self defense crowd - Page 2

m21sniper · 04-09-2009, 11:45 AM

Let them raise up against us, there are a hell of a lot more of us than there are of them.

cmccuist · 04-09-2009, 11:46 AM

It is absolutely legal to shoot criminals!! That's exactly what happened. In the Horn case, those guys walked out of a neighbor's house with pillow cases full of shwag and he shot them. He wasn't indicted. The grand jury concluded that he didn't do anything illegle.

I'm predicting that this guy who shot these kids will also not be indicted.

How can you say it's not legal to shoot criminals?

vash · vash's Garage

i am a big fan of taking out the trash. i want a socom 16, for exactly the same reason. with a mild 1-2x power aimpoint, i would have rattled the entire car.

having said that, i see pazuzu's POV. he was probably clear of danger, and went back in. (like 90% of the rifle in the backseat crowd would have done). it isnt cut and dry if this was the right thing to do.

m21sniper · 04-09-2009, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

And what does anything you said have to do with what I said?

Another poster said that case cleared the people of tex to kill intruders almost regardless of circumstance, you said it did not, i highlighted specific details of the case to argue that it did.

vash · vash's Garage

i am not versed in texas penal codes....but i think my brother told me, if you witness a felony, you can take action?

cmccuist · 04-09-2009, 11:52 AM

The problem with vigilantes is that they just want to shoot someone. They are looking for a reason to use their guns. Just like the criminals.

In these two cases, the truck driver and Horn were not looking for a reason to kill someone, but they didn't look the other way when the opportunity presented itself.

What are the odds that those burglars and those kids shooting at the truck were going to turn their lives around and get a job selling insurance or real estate or becoming engineers or community organizers?

Pazuzu · 04-09-2009, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vash

having said that, i see pazuzu's POV. he was probably clear of danger, and went back in. (like 90% of the rifle in the backseat crowd would have done). it isnt cut and dry if this was the right thing to do.

It never is cut and dried...

Did he take 3 or 4 people off the street that need to be off the street? Yes.
Did he put himself in danger? Yes.
Did he break a Texas law? Very possibly

So, just because of #1, should we ignore #3? No, laws are there for a reason. You cannot decide to charge person A and not charge person B. However, we have constructed a legal system that is designed to absolve people who were in specific situations. Not everyone who put a gun to another person and pulls the trigger will go to jail, but everyone should be charged, and the case examined. We even do that with police officers, whom we've given nearly unlimited power to...we still examine a shooting when they're involved.

m21sniper · 04-09-2009, 12:03 PM

I can almost guarantee you he isn't going to be charged, in which case he obviously broke no laws at all.

Pazuzu · 04-09-2009, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m21sniper

I can almost guarantee you he isn't going to be charged, in which case he obviously broke no laws at all.

Oh, you're probably right about the first half of that statement. Did you get charged when you blew open a pay phone and stole the money inside? Did you break the law, if you weren't charged?

m21sniper · 04-09-2009, 12:24 PM

No cop no crime.

Pazuzu · 04-09-2009, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m21sniper

No cop no crime.

I can accept a statement like that, instead of "no charges, no crime". I see a distict difference there.

It's just like the difference between "it's legal to defend yourself with a weapon if you are in imminent danger" and "it's legal to shoot and kill a criminal". No, killing a person is homicide, period. It is never legal. It many be *justified*, it may be *allowed* by the court system in some cases, but it is not legal.

vash · vash's Garage

i feel the laws are cut and dry.

it is when people start interpreting them that gets everything all convoluted.

any clue as to what type of rifle he had?

futuresoptions · 04-09-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

I'm sure that you're fully aware of the fact that you would last an hour if the citizens where to go vigilante in the street, right? I expect you're not the most loved person in the 'hoods, and if the citizens raise up arms against the thugs, the thugs are going to raise up twice as many arms against the citizens.

Also, look around you. Look at the people who live, work and play in your neighborhood. Do you think that even 50% of those people are in any way shape or form capable of being honorable and just vigilantes?? If you're going to give the power of life and death to the citizens, they must be honorable and just people, and that is a trait that is hard to find these days.

Pazuzu · 04-09-2009, 12:49 PM

Lovely. Useful. Helpful. Full of intelligent conversation. Do you think that the citizens around you would be capable of clean up the streets? And you would call me a retard...

masraum · 04-09-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m21sniper

I can almost guarantee you he isn't going to be charged, in which case he obviously broke no laws at all.

Come on now, that's just a silly statement. Ever gotten pulled over by a cop and gotten a warning? Doesn't mean that you didn't break the law, it just meant that he was being nice or didn't want to screw with the paperwork.

I very much suspect that the guy that shot/killed the kids with a rifle broke at least 1 law if not a couple. Chances are he won't be charged because "they" realize that it will lead no where and would be a waste of money (and chances are they are unofficially cheering the guy like most of us are to some extent).

masraum · 04-09-2009, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Do you think that the citizens around you would be capable of clean up the streets?

I'm often surprised that most people can manage to wipe their own butts, must less be free to deal justice.

Bill Douglas · 04-09-2009, 12:58 PM

Quite a good story. The truck driver is an EXCELLENT shot.

We had a situation here in NZ where 2 or 3 young bad guys tried to rob an Indian store owner. The store owner chased them with a hockey stick (Indians love hockey LOL) and beat the living daylights out of them 50 meters from his store. The police charged him because the young guys were nearly dead, but the public prosecuter said it was in self defence haha.

futuresoptions · 04-09-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

Lovely. Useful. Helpful. Full of intelligent conversation. Do you think that the citizens around you would be capable of clean up the streets? And you would call me a retard...

Mike,

I read your post intelligently and that is why I poked fun at it...

I believe that you make sense in your leanings towards vigilantism bordering on the fray of anarchy (my assumption), but... you offer no solutions... just knock someone else's feelings / ideas... I would also assume there are wards in Houston that you do not venture into....

Pazuzu · 04-09-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by futuresoptions

Mike,

I read your post intelligently and that is why I poked fun at it...

OK then...retard

Quote:

I believe that you make sense in your leanings towards vigilantism bordering on the fray of anarchy (my assumption), but... you offer no solutions... just knock someone else's feelings / ideas... I would also assume there are wards in Houston that you do not venture into....

I live in one of those wards...we just had the 3rd murder a block from my home in 18 months.

What solutions are there? I'm not about to go out at night and clean up the streets in my hood alone, that's not only stupid, but illegal (I would be forced to kill in vengeance). I would need every single able bodied person around me to stand side by side every night to do that. Since that won't happen, I do what I can by keeping a watchful eye out for my environment and knowing my local officers.

And I don't think I was knocking Sniper's feelings...does he even have any?

futuresoptions · 04-09-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

I live in one of those wards...

Then you are truly aware of the problem...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

What solutions are there?

Unfortunately, none at the present moment...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pazuzu

I'm not about to go out at night and clean up the streets

At some point in time this may become a necessary evil... I find it odd that our country has allowed the expansion of gangs / organized crime like it has... Police officers refusing to go into certain area's of some cities because it is too dangerous

I foresee that with the continued growth of gangs / criminal element, that the issue of which ethnicity is the majority of this country will be dwarfed by the fact that criminals have become the majority over the honest citizens...