DITTO

BTW, what was important was that they TOOK action, any plan would basically have worked...including burning the money at high noon on Pennsylvania Ave in DC

You can say THANK YOU to Bernanke and Paulson...that you ALL are not in Bread Lines...

Many folks employ Y2K bug logic: there was no collapse, so it wasn't real to begin with.

So......you'd prefer that the workers at this company NOT have a stake in its fortunes? Your preference is for a more purely adversarial role between workers and management? Your strategic thinking is......let's call it "unconventional."

I assume GM will file BK. By one estimate, the deal GM is offering bondholders is worth 5 cents on the dollar or less. For bondholders, might as well roll the dice in BK.

But, honestly, what GM bondholder didn't know, long ago, that the bonds were worth very little? I expect that plenty of the bondholders also hold CDS contracts on the bonds, so they would actually prefer it if GM defaults - better to collect on the CDS rather than take 5 cents on the dollar in settlement. And plenty more are hedge funds who bought the bonds at a huge discount, gambling for a quick double or triple - high-risk traders, just like those who are buying and selling GM stock here. And even the long-term investors who have been killed in the bonds, they are professional investors and made a very bad bet, tough luck and hope you don't get fired. I don't know how many grandmas still hold GM bonds, they are the only ones I'd feel sorry for.

GM owes the UAW 30B at the end of 09 to take the burden of the Retireees off GM's back. The whole fking company should belong to the UAW to pay for the Retirees pensions...

You put 35 on the line in one of those factories and you are owed what was CONTRACTED with you...you spent the only thing you have and that is your life and time and now they are going to tell you to take it up the a$$ some more...go get a job at 75 or 80 years old, because the managment of the company fked up...I also am not going to excuse the UAW's participation in this cluster fk either...

Exactly.

Hmmm I hope YOUR pension fund is not holding those Bonds either....

Nope, at least not more than some infinitesimal fraction of a percent.

TARP money was not needed for survival, but the banks and financial sector sure want people to think so. Money was funneled into and sat in the banks or used for activities the money was never meant to be used for. It made a lot of people feel good about their efforts though...event the guy on the street that was for TARP. There'll always be folks saying how close we were to a depression and how TARP prevented it, but that was a rush to do something...just anything!

Any well thought out plan that didn't require throwing money at the problem would have helped. Just like this GM thing.....but I'm hoping the people who voted for TARP learn something and use their heads on this if it goes to a vote.

Right. You spend 10 hours a day in the financial markets for 10 years. Then I'll pay attention to your insights on those markets.

Others have spent more time in the financial sector than you John...and they screwed up big time and cost me and you a hell of a lot of money....

Just because one works in or analyzes the financial doesn't make one a good problem solver.

I find it funny that guys on your side think you solved your own problem with our money....and now we all should be thanking you for saving the world...or fixing the problems that all you financial geniuses got us into.

Maybe you guys should spend a part of your 10 hr days looking at it from the perspective of someone outside the circle....

A $78B loss is not a success John...

Perhaps you think Weinstein should spend more time in the financial sector?

1/4 black Hitler should be shot for this:mad::mad::mad:
This was done to pay back the union, screw the Amican people, the dems & unions know what is best for America:mad:

For 8 years Byron couldn't see fascists, and now they're everywhere. Dude, you need to get back on your meds.

Right or wrong, the federal bailout of the auto industry is not a high probability bet (IMO). It takes years to build customer loyalty, and for the past 3-4 decades, the US automakers have done huge damage to their perceived quality, lost existing customers forever(?), and the younger generations grew up never even considering a domestic automobile. Look at Chrysler since their last federal intervention. Except for a few years feeding off the Daimler cash cow, they have floundered and are back in dire straits again. My money is on GM and Chrysler failing. Maybe this spring if the government decides enough is enough, or definitely later, when their hoped for recovery never materializes. Just my $0.02.

Edit: I'm curious about the impact Fiat will have on Chrysler if their restructuring plan is approved. They want to take a 35% stake in Chrysler, and Chrysler gets access to Fiat's small car technology. Will the Chrysler badge hold back any potential success due to buyer perceptions of Chrysler? Will their new product offerings incorporating Fiat technology come to late to help?

Agreed. Right now we're throwing good money after bad, trying to sustain something that cannot be sustained. Eventually they will both fail and the taxpayer's billions will be wasted. Actually, I would argue that bankruptcy is the key to their survival. Short of bk, they cannot make the drastic and sweeping changes required to turn a profit.

I predict that they drag Fiat down as well. It's the same issue as the Daimler-Chrysler merger - what does Fiat gain? Dealer and parts network that Fiat can utilize to reintroduce their cars to America? Chrysler has an extensive network, but does Fiat want to market and service their semi-upscale products through a sub-par dealer network? How many people would buy a Fiat off of a Chrysler lot?

That depends. If the UAW has ownership, will it accept fair wages for its workers? Fair, as in competitive with the non-union wages that many other automakers pay? Or will everyone get a raise and extra time-off?

You have to admit that the current UAW is out of control. The problem goes to the top of GM and Chrysler, but they're one of the issues. I always go back to a news piece I saw a few months ago. It described a job on one of the GM truck lines. Without this job, the line would stop. Three people in the plant were qualified to do this job, and it paid $40/hr. Then they showed the job: a mechanical arm swings the spare tire under the truck bed, where the worker secures it in place. As a counterpoint, they mentioned that a Porsche tech that HAND BUILDS motors is paid $25/hr.

In the months since, no one has come up with a plan. We've thrown trillions of dollars out the door, expanded the money supply by a factor of 6, we've started force feeding the goose. I think the plan is some sort of bank foie gras.

GM should have simply gone bankrupt last December, chapter 11. All of this messing around is just putting it off. GM would have eventually survived, but would have been smaller and leaner.

Instead, we now have Government Motors. It will make cars decided on by the whims of Nancy, that the people will not want.

It may look something like this:

http://forum.avtoindex.com/foto/data...1969-79_30.jpg

http://www.ida.liu.se/~adrpo/hobbies...acia/dacia.jpg

The ultimate irony is that the UAW may well become "management". For decades, like a fascist dictator, the UAW has built-up "management" as the enemy so that they could be the solution.

Now that it is their show to run, will they become the thing they allegedly despise? Will they finally be forced to stop being a parasite?