Warning OFF TOPIC subject - question on Tanfoglio guns
 

Since I have nowhere else to ask I'll ask here. If you're one of the gun haters please leave this thread.

Those of you who like guns please let me know if you have any experience with the italian Tanfoglio handguns.

I'm after the new Tanfoglio Force 22 LR pistol which was introduced recently. Does any of you know if this is a good gun? I want to know if there's anything bad to say about it. I mean guns can have flaws just like new cars for instance. The frame/grip is the exact same as the 9mm models and I like that. Take a look:

http://www.tanfoglio.it/html/force22_longrifle.htm

Any comment is welcome since I'm very close to placing an order. Please notice: I'm NOT interested in 9mm pistols!

I've only heard of tanfolio on tv (usually on law and order episodes) try http://www.shooters.com/ for more info. I prefer a Ruger mkll with bull barrel.

Mikkel, what do you plan on using it for? Since you are looking for a .22, I assume you are going to be using it almost exclusively for target practice at an indoor range. Should be an incredible sidearm for that.

Mikkel,

I don't think that model has even made it to the USA, yet. I haven't seen anything about it in any of the US magazines. I assume it must have a reasonable price advantage over US products imported to Europe, right?

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Warren Hall
1973 911S Targa

The tanfoglio looks like a pistol one would choose as a substitute practice weapon in order to use the cheaper rimfire ammo instead of 9mm, .40 S&W, centerfire ammo which is more expensive. So, you want this, or would better accuracy be your goal? If that's your goal,you might check out the SIG Trailside Target model. It's a little $pendy at $475 or so, but offers incredible accuracy. NRA tested the 6" barrel model. 10 shot groups, 25 yards, pistol mounted in a ransom rest. With CCI green Tag ammo, it grouped 1.50 inches. Impressive? That was the worst test group. Firing Eley Club ammo?
0.27"! (source, American Rifleman...April 2000) If you care to move "up" from this, there is also a Trailside competition model.
Oh..and if you want one? Be prepared to wait....for obvious reasons, this pistol is in high demand.

Mikke,
I remember last time you started a gun thread. It almost caused a War! Why do it again? As mentioned by Wayne and others, there is an OT Forum, it's here http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/ultimate/f orumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&forum=Porsche+Talk&n umber=25&DaysPrune=45&LastLogin=
Why not just take it there? http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/smile.gif


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'75 911S Targa
'81 BMW Alpina C1 2.3

[This message has been edited by Saffs (edited 06-09-2001).]

I agree with pwd72s. It looks like it shares the same parts as the 9mm pistol. This is good if you are a police department and hava a limited ammo budget for training, but need the controls to be in the same place and work the same as a duty weapons.

For 22lr plinking and target shooting, the 9mm sized pistol is much heavier and bulkier than need be, as it is under much less stress. I don't know about their availability in Europe, but you may consider a Ruger Mk2, Browning Buckmark, Smith & Wesson 22A, or something similar.

Of course, none of this matters if it is what you want.

Tom

Tom, I sure agree with you. I considered ordering the SIG...but decided not to. You see, I have one of the old "made in Belgium" Browning .22 "Challenger" pistols. Just love it. Funny how things I bought back in the early 70's are now considered collectables, and I just keep on enjoying the use of them. But if I want a pistol that feels like a 9mm? Then I bring out my other made in Belgium Browning...aka/high power. They may have been made decades ago, but both still group well. Your other handgun suggestions were good ones. If you want accuracy in a .22 pistol, do not buy a practice gun...buy an accurate .22 pistol instead. Here's a link on the SIG Trailsides:
http://www.sigarms.com/sigarmsweb/trailside_pistols.htm Happy reading, and note the test target supplied by the factory with each pistol...

[This message has been edited by pwd72s (edited 06-09-2001).]

Saffs,
I did actually remember something about an off topic forum, but I had problems finding it and thought "what the heck"... Please bear with me http://www.pelicanparts.com/ultimate/redface.gif

To the rest of you guys.

Thanks for your comments. I am in fact going to use the gun for indoor target shooting and the occasional outdoor contests. The gun is resonably priced compared to other .22s on the market here. It wighs only 0.7 or 0.6 kilos, so it's rather light, which I like. Also I prefer the grip being similar to 9mm pistols. I don't like the typical .22 target pistols with their chunky handles and looong barrels. Also those pistols are rather costly here. Our ackward legislation also helps making the Tanfoglio interesting.

What I was actually after was if there were any quality problems. I too hadn't heard of this brand until recently so naturally I'm curious.

Hi Mikkel, I finished reading all the posts from the earliest (controversial) to your latest posts back in June of 2001. Just curious to see if you got a handgun and what type.

I have never been a gun owner but recently got into target shooting with my son. Before this experience, I viewed gun owners as fanatics or right wingers (hope I got that one right) which I consider ignorance on my part. Since we are a culture of guns, I felt it better to be a part of something my son is interested in and to make sure he is taught properly. We are having a great time learning and improving our accuracy. We purchased a Ruger MkII Competition Target .22 and a Glock 17 9mm.

It is very interesting here in the U.S. with the debate over gun ownership and control. It is as emotional of a topic as there is. We don't expect everyone to understand the culture but weapons (Spears, knives, swords, machetes, etc or some type) are a fact of life in all cultures and it seems that criminals will take advantage of what they believe to be the weaker un-armed members. I have been shocked by the "ordinary" people I have seen at the shooting ranges here. I have found that there are a great deal of people who own handguns that you would never suspect. These are not gun nuts or fanatics, just ordinary folks that believe in the right of personal protection and/or enjoy the competition of shooting. We have a program in some communities where juvenile delinquents are taken to a prison and given the once over about life in prison and all that goes with that culture. I believe they should also be taken to a shooting range to view the ordinary people that they would probably consider victims if they saw them on the streets. I saw the middle aged women driving Mercedes Benz, wearing fine jewlery and stopping by to get in a few rounds at the range. The future would be criminals might think twice about the potential of getting killed by an ordinary citizen if they knew how varied the type of people are that carry weapons here.

Hope your shooting experience goes well and remember the golden rules of firearm safety:

1. Handle all firearms as if they were loaded.

2. Never point the gun at something that you are not willing to destroy.

3. Think of what is behind the target and how far a bullet will travel.

4. All firearms should be stored unloaded and secured in a safe storage away from children and untrained adults

Mikkel,
I note you're from Denmark.
Are rules restricting the use/ownership of handguns as strict there, as they are in Canada (for instance)?

SHAKENBAKE.....kids and guns...before the jerks come on you with some BS I have a true story. The interview was on Nat'l Public Radio in mid January. A female was interviewing Marine Corps General Reinwald about a Boy Scout visit to his base. She was told the Boy Scouts were to be taught about guns. "but your equiping them to be violent killers". The General replied "Well you're equiped to be a prostitute, but you're not one, are you" The radio went silent and the interview ended.
http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/clap.gif

BUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! :D


Now THATS funny.

Shakenbake

I was surprised the same way you were. At first I thought (as most danes do) that guns were complety banned and non existent here. Then I learned about gun clubs and target shooting. I still remember the first time I walked into the club and saw a guy with a 357Magnum S&W revolver on the table in front of him. It was like an american action movie - I simply couldn't believe that we had such guns in Denmark. In general I pretty much had to be able to swim without ever having been in the water. (Had to find out everything myself)

Today I'm part of that "society" myself and quite like it. You are right that many gun owners are regular people and actually very nice persons. I enjoy being at the gun club and we discuss guns just like we here at pelicanparts discuss Porsches. It's actually quite innocent even though that might seem unlikely to many.

I did get a Tanfoglio .22 pistol and it's ok if you take it for what it is: Cheap and italian :rolleyes: I plan on buying a Glock 17 9mm as well.

Doug Zielke
I'm not familiar with canadian gun legislation, but I can tell that I waited 2 years before I could apply for a gun permit (normal). Also concealed carry is illegal here as well as all handguns in .40, .45 .44 Magnum, 10mm, .50 etc. Everything full auto is banned. No laser sights, no silencers and a minumum lenght of 210 mm is required for any handgun. For that reason all our Glock 17s have been fitted with longer barrels too meet legislation demands. (See pic at: http://www.huntershouse.dk/vaaben/Glock/glock_17_dk.htm )

I have always found www.thefiringline.com to be a very informative board. It reminds me alot of Pelican - but with guns. Lots of well informed and interesting characters over there.


Jeb

Mikkel, if available, you should try to get the Ruger MKII Competition. It is a .22 with a 5.5 inch barrel. Very accurate and inexpensive to shoot. Here in the U.S. they will run you around $450-$500. It comes with the barrel pre drilled to & tapped to accept the rails and scope rings which are included with all hardware. All you have to do is add scope or red dot sight.

My son (17 yrs old) & I enjoy it to compete against each other. We shoot the Glock 17 as well but it takes a lot more practice to control, especially at distance.

ceb

I am a Glock owner and like this discussion in itself, but I tell you, if they EVER move anything OT again on this board they are f'n hypocrites. This is about as far form Porsche 911's as you can get.

glad to see we are a helathy group of men. fast cars, guns, beer and...
http://www.sportshooter.com/events/swedishbikinis.htm


pics were too big to attach here.


http://www.sportshooter.com/events/swedishbikinis3.htm

Heh heh I think Wayne has forgotten about this thread since it's very old and has been stored in the dusty archives for so long until recently when it was brought up again.

Still I don't see how this is worse than threads about music, food, holiday experiences, the weather, movies etc. etc. I know of a German Porsche board much like this one. Only difference is that there they are hysterical about off topic threads. Even asking how to post a picture will get the thread locked. Of course that's noticeable when you visit the board. In the words of Homer Simpson...: Booring ;)

Man, I wish we had a tournament that we could have the bikini babes shooting...that was awesome...baby!

just offhand:

EVERY Italian handgun i've ever shot proved to be nothing but a pleasure. my favourite were a few different Berettas that were just PERFECT. yes they were .22

this Tanfoglio looks kind of cool. i'd say go for it!

my favourite ammo for .22 pistols is the Remington Subsonic ammo. VERY quiet, so that you can use it in a basement range with basic hearing protection and not worry about excessive noise. if you can't get the Remington Subsonic, get the Aguila subsonic ammo. the PMC subsonic stuff isn't very nice, it smells funny and it gums up the pistol action.

good luck!

obin

leland- HA! funny story!

I've not tried that one yet, but my experience with Tanfoglio is: great value for money. I don't know what the US agents are like but if you have to deal direct with Tanfoglio you'll find they're good people.

Well guys, this topic did get moved, as I knew it would.

Just speculating, but "Saffs" probably whined about it to one of the moderators until they got sick of him.
He's got a problem...he *thinks* he's a moderator.

So be it.
Thank you Mikkel for info on Danish gun laws. It seems they are as, if not more, restrictive than we have here in Canada.

Now, let's continue this interesting discussion, unfettered as it can be here.

While the SIG does shoot rather well, it's a bit pricy. For my everyday plinking pleasure, I use a Ruger MkII with a 6" heavy barrel, only modification is a trigger job. My only complaint with this gun is the poor stock trigger, even with a trigger job, the trigger is still a bit sloppy. If you want a tack driver, get a TC Contender, get an aftermarket target grade barrel, and have the trigger reworked. Out of a Ransom Rest, mine did three shot groups (at 50 yards) of a bit over .5" with CCI Green tag. Eley did as well, but cost more. If the piece is for serious social purposes, get the biggest thing you can control and learn to use it. There is no substitute for mass, velocity and diameter in that context.

On the topic of gun ownership- everybody should know how to shoot. I do have a bit of a "litmus test" for anyone running for office, if I even get a hint of their having any proclivity towards restricting my gun ownership rights, they will not get my vote, I don't care which party they're from. Most bleeding heart liberals who want gun control don't want to face the real problem, and that is making the sob's who commit the crime do the time. Why should I, as a law abiding citizen, allow my rights to be eroded by a couple of political poltroon hacks because of the acts of a wacko? Having been on the business end of a gun before, having been carjacked, shot and left for dead, I have NO sympathy for criminals.

Getting off my soapbox,

Dave, as I understand it there are 5 different MKII models. Which MKII do you have? Standard, Target, Government target, Competition Target or 22/45 model. Who is your gunsmith? I see that you are also from NC.

Chris

Not being very experienced in serious social situations I can only comment that a good friend who has many wins in seriously serious social situations uses a Browning 9mm. Placement, Placement, Placement.

Ahh, Doug. You made me feel all happy and warm inside just to be here, thanks! But, not even a ;) to indicate some dry humour or sarcasm? Hmmm, someone has a problem, huh?
But seriously:
Your speculating very wrong, Doug. I enjoy discussion and debate, and I won't complain about posts to moderators, and never have. This is a board of many ideas, politics, around the World: it's great to discuss stuff even though we may not agree, right?
Please ask me first about your speculations before you put it here for everyone too see, so at least I can "defend" myself if I don't happen to see a thread again - like, it's a good job I looked here to see this....
So, therefore, let me know about your speculations/questions personally in a PM or email, before you *whine* about me here to everyone over your incorrect speculations - that would be the more straightforward and direct thing to do.
Remind me again, who has the problem....? ;)
I've no desire at all to be a moderator BTW.

Obin

It's not a bad gun. But it doesn't work well with standard .22 ammo. Therefore I tried various types and by that found out that the gun suffer from feeding problems for example with Remington High Velocity .22 ammo. In the end I found out that the pistol works very good with CCI .22 Stinger. Therefore I have been using that ammo ever since. Only disadvantage is that it's rather more expensive than stock .22 (and of course is noiser).

Milu
I have dealt with Tanfoglio directly via e-mail before I decided to buy the gun and even after. They have been polite and helpful. I answered their costumer opinion poll at www.tanfoglio.it and gave them good marks, except for the manual that came with the gun. That is if you would call that a manual ;)

Doug
If only that was it :D I'm afraid my description is far from comprehensive enough to really explain our legislation. As with so many other areas the legislation is more like a jungle. Confusing, burocratic and different depending on what type of gun you own. Rifle owners have their "own" rules whereas handgun owners (me) have their's etc. etc. I guess it's easier to say that we have very strict rules in general.

hmm, i have found certain brands work better or worse than others also. the Remington works VERY well, and it's subsonic as a bonus! still packs a punch however. i also use the CCI stinger, it's very nice stuff. the most powerful stuff i use in .22 is called "Quik-Shok". you don't want to be on the bad end of that when it's fired. it's for knocking down varmints and it creates quite an impact.

check this place out, tell them what you have, and THEY will know the best and least expensive/quiet ammo for your pistol:

http://www.22ammo.com

they even stock tracers for your pistol! :D

they also do ship internationally. good luck!

obin

Chris-

See that you are in CLT, grew up there, moved out, no desire to move back. (It's easier to find places to shoot up here!) I have a MK II Target (although I prefer the "bull" barrel more), I do my own work. Between the TC and the MK II, the TC leaves the MK II in the dust. The downside is that it's single shot, upside, change barrels and you can have anything from a .22LR up to a .30/30 or .45/70GVT. The trigger on my TC took about a day to do and is very crisp at just under 2lbs. (That's in the 'breathe and it fires' catagory.) The Ruger trigger is very different mechanically, about the only thing that can be done short of replacing it with an aftermarket one is to stone the engagement surfaces and retension the sear spring. Must be quite careful here since too much of a good thing makes it unreliable. The MK II trigger is down to about 3.5lbs, but is mushy, with a bit of travel.

I used to compete in IHMSA and found that while my competitors would diddle with the sights between each course, a mere ammo brand change would achieve the same result. A couple of fractions of an inch don't matter much in IHMSA, knocking over the metal plate does. Not having to adjust the sights made it much easier and removed a variable. The guys on the center fire courses were using primarily either a modified Remington 700XP rechambered to .308 or .4570GVT TC Contenders. Either has ample recoil to jellify most wrists, but the results on the steel targets had to be seen to be believed. In IHMSA, a hit didn't count unless the target was knocked from the stands, a "nick" with one of those heavyweights was usually all it took. BTW- there are some targets at 200m in IHMSA, and no scopes are allowed, and this is handguns only! Great FUN but not shot in NC that I know of or else I'd be doing it still.

RonninLB-

A very good friend of mine was faced with the "him or me" situation some time ago. My friend shot first with a 9mm, hit the other guy 5 times, three of which should have been a near instant fatal hit. The crook still ran away about 100yds before finally expiring and relieving us of his presence. Post mortem revealed the crook was under the influence of several substances at the time. Net result, my pal now carries nothing smaller than a .45 with hot loads or Black Talons, most of the time, it's a .44 Mag. For more insight on this type of problem, review the reasons the Army went back to the .45 after the Moro Rebellion in the Phillipines. Seems the natives on the local weed, while sufficiently mortally plugged with .38sw, still had enough steam left to take a couple of soldiers with them. Being one to take the experiences of those who have been there to heart, I still subscribe to the "bigger, heavier, faster" school, not "more shots and I might hit my target" group. (Until I need stronger glasses and then I'll use a 12ga with open cylinder with #1 buck!)

Mikkel-

IN GENERAL--

The .22LR is a "dirty" cartridge. Just look at the amount of fouling and crud generated while firing. Some brands are worst than others about it and a gun with tight tolerances may be more susceptible to feed failures because of this. This doesn't mean that the "tighter" gun is a bad piece, just that different care needs to be taken with it to keep it functioning. Glad to hear you've found shooting is really great fun. Practice often and be safe!

Dave951M:

heh, i know all about the weaknesses of the 9mm. i've heard it from people that have been in those "him or me" situations. they all report identical findings to what you stated. one of my friends upped the ante though. he has a carry and conceal permit for his USP, but if the going gets tough he has a Desert Eagle .50 calibre semi-auto. we shot it a few times and all we could say was "HOLY S***!!!!!!!" you DO NOT want to be on the wrong end of that cannon. i have videos of him shooting it if you want. e-mail me and i can hook you up with the videos.

also, about the .22 cartridge being 'dirty'... oh yeah it is! you can through 6,000 rounds of cheap crappy ammo in an AK-47 and not have the gun jam once. after 500 rounds in my Marlin M60, it's jamming and misfiring with cheap ammo. the expensive .22 ammo will go for about 2,000+ rounds though.

obin

I agree on .22 being dirty and much less reliable than centerfire ammo.

Regarding socalled "stopping power" I never think that people will agree on a conclusion. I once read on a law and order homepage that in the US .22 ammo kills more people than centerfire ammo does. Althought that doesn't say much it's still worth mentioning.

The police here used to have .32 Walther's, but recently they switched to 9mm H&K because many criminals kept running even after getting shot with the .32. A year or 2 ago an immigrant shot a young woman in the head with a .22 revolver because she refused to have sex with him. She survived. Last x-mas a criminal shot a young man in the head with a 9mm for reasons unknown. The victim survived.

Pretty impressive that the victims would survive shots in their heads. Still both of them lost conciousness at the time. So in those cases "stopping power" was suffcient I guess.

Just rented an H&K USP 45 today and shot a box of 50.

WOW!

25 yrds was tougher for me than my son. I was totally embarassed by my 17yr old son. This is the handgun he has always admired/wanted and he amazed me with his skill in handling it. I was able to outshoot him with the Ruger MKII and we were about even with the Glock 17...obviously I need more time with the bigger guns. I tend to pull anticipating the recoil. We are looking for a target rifle for long distance (100-200yrds) if anyone has an opinion...ceb

Shakenbake

I know how you feel. I started shooting together with my younger brother. Both of us had never held a gun in our hand before. Today my brother is far better than me http://www.pelicanparts.com/support/...s/a_frusty.gif

How dare he be better than his older brother :D