Mossberg 500A persuader Questions
 

Hi guys,

I have some questions to the firearms gurus about a Mossberg 500A persuader 20" barrel I just picked up.

1 - Folding stock. It presently has a pistol grip. I am considering a folding stock. I see there are top folding and side folding. I am sure there are plusses and minuses to each. Can you please tell me what they are? Is such a stock even necessary for the purpose (see (2) below)?

2 - Preferred 12 gauge round. I am aware of the different sizes for a given gauge. Is there a preferred round for home defensive posture? How about home defensive posture now turns into a "they are now on the run" posture (sorry I don't want to use the "best defense is a good "O-word")? At the very least I want to be able to punch through walls (wood with concrete stucco) and floors (wood) and still achieve the purpose.

3 - Effective range. Note how I did not mention maximum. Ok so I know it would depend upon the marksman, but on average, with rounds recommended from (2), whats a reasonable effective range? Yes, I plan on going to a range to figure it out, but it is always nice when experiments coincide with experience (which comes from you gurus).

4 - Side Saddle. I see there are different side saddles available. Any one have positive/negative experience for a particular side saddle? I see there are drum type modifications, illegal or not (history is always written by the winner), plusses/minuses to the drum (if it is even available)?


Regards,
Carlton

18 inch, I took this to the range and got 8 out of 20 clays with it, I would have been happy with 2 out of 20. I like this stock, it slides. It is adjustabel so short arms, long arms, whatever. My left arm has been broken twice and the grip isn't as good so this with the pistol grip works great for me. I have seen all of this stuff on the Mossberg site.
In Alaska everyone had a Remington with a folding stock but I got what I thought was a good deal on this and it's fine.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1252030041.jpg

1) A stock is necessary on any long arm you wish to aim. And yes, one must aim even a shotgun at any in home defensive ranges - even a cylinder choke pattern will be no larger than, say, a tennis ball even at down-the-hall ranges. The pattern does not open up fast enough to just kinda sorta point it in the general direction of the threat.

That said, folding stocks on shotguns are an aberration. Lose the pistol grip and get a standard wood butt stock for it. You cannot aim it with the pistol grip, and you cannot put a real stock on it with the pistol grip. The pistol grip / folding stock combination is just another manifestation of this whole misguided "tactical" phase the shooting world is experiencing.

2) Most folks use a shotgun because it won't readily penetrate these barriers. Why would you need to shoot through stucco walls and wood floors? Forget that nonsense.

The best in-home defensive ammunition for the shotgun are plain old light dove or skeet/trap loads with #7 1/2, #8, or #9 shot. Very little recoil and blast, won't go through a wall and on to visit the neighbors, and absolutely lethal at conversational ranges.

3) Effective range of the above combination is longer than your house. Outdoors, 30-40 yards. Understand, however, that most courts will need a great deal of convincing that it was "self defense" at that kind of range.

4) Another useless appendage wrought by the tactical wannabes. The side saddle ammo holder, not the drum. There is no drum. Anyway, if you need more ammo than what the gun already holds, more ammo isn't going to help you.

Anyway, don't get caught up in all this "tactical shotgun" bullshyt. Put a normal butt stock on it, load it with dove/trap loads, and you will be just about as well armed as a man can possibly be. And it will look a lot better for you in court (and you will wind up there if you use it, civil at least) if it looks like a bird gun and is loaded with birdshot.

I just put an 18" cylinder bore barrel on my 870.

I have a five-pack of 00 shot for home defense.

I have several hundred rounds of 7 1/2 shot and a field barrel for clays.

I have a few boxes of slugs for when all hell breaks loose (I also have a rifled barrel for that contingent).

federal low recoil OO buck and federal low recoil slugs. home defense its perfect. wants to really blow poo up............? go for some breneke slugs or their OO buck in 3" gurranteeed to "git'er DUNNED!

for addons and other uber goodies look up vangcomp.com

hans vang is the spiritual leader of all things snotgun. here in cosmopolitan chino valley,az.

check his groupings out. my slugs after being vang comped on my rem 870 and M-2 benelli are about 3" at 100yds. my buckshot groups about 12 " at 50yds.

nothing will enter my house EVER and hurt me! NOTHING!

added streamlight TLR-1 xenon eyeball burners to both with remote switch.


folding stocks are great! folding stocks suck! folding stocks HURT!

even my spec-ops folding stock will give your cheek where it rests a nice shove. but they are great for backpacking/throwing in 4x4's /camping/shoot off the hip home defense.

either the rem 870 or m-2 are always at my nightstand when lil carlos goes to sleep and counts elk.

for home defense a side saddle is great. possible interference with specops(blackhawk.com) folder.check that out.

specops best recoil reducing folder on the planet and it will still make you respect a 12 gauge!

load (1) OO buck round, then (1) slug, then (1) OO, und so veiter

read tacticalshotgunforums.com reading is yer friend. see how others make mistakes during their builds.

brownells and midway fer parts. and vang.

not to flame higgy, #6 is great for first shot to the eyes, to blind bears/zombeez on a charge with follow up buck and then slugs.

i use federal low recoils cuz the cops do here. i live a distance from my neighbors so i dont have a overpenetration problem.

my folding stock is for packability only. its great for that, but as stated they suck also. threw the ramline folder away.

the 870 is a throw down in the dirt mud rocks sand snow rain camp gun and sometimes home defense.

my fave is the M-2. very lil recoil from standard stock and vang waving his magic wand over it.

I have a Mossberg Mariner in 12 ga. I have it loaded with 00 buck and also five more rounds on the stock sleeve. Yes, it's just about unthinkable that I'd need that much ammo in a defensive situation. But it'd really, really suck to need it and not have it.

Eh...sounds like you want a Saiga-12:

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Yes, you really do want a stock, for several reasons. Either top or side folder is OK (i guess), but a real live stock is even better, IMO. Much better.

With a real stock your shotgun is also a very effective 3' club if the bad guy gets too close or you run dry. You can also use it to smash 'chit' that may need smashing in an emergency situation.

3" Magnum 15 pellet 00 buck cannot be matched for defensive purposes...IMO.

There's some merit to what Jeff is saying, but here i'm actually a fan of the deep penetrating 00 buck and not the shallow penetrating light shot. This is interesting because in handgun ammo me and Jeff are in disagreement, as he favors deep penetrating solid loads, and i penetrate high speed light hollowpoints that violently expand and fragment to bits on impact.

Go figure. ;)

I could certainly see loading your first round to be fired(be it chamber or last round you put in the tube if you keep the chamber empty) as high brass 3" magnum 6 shot though. But i'd go all 00 after that.

With your barrel, using the aforementioned 3" magnum 00 buck, max range with cyl.bore choke should be about 35 meters....with a stock.

Without a stock, 10 meters...tops.

You really want a stock.

The actual name brand "side saddle" models are the best ones, they work great. I wouldn't mess with the drum feed unless you expect a full out war (and if you expect a full out war you should REALLY get a 12ga semi-auto with a 8rd tube mag and 22" bbl). Otherwise a nice long tube mag of 6 or more rounds is plenty. With your 18" bbl a 6rd mag should work fine. Not sure what yours comes with, probably 5 or 6. If you don't have a 6 round tube you can most likely order one, it's very easy to install.

Federal does sell enhanced pattern spread 00 shells (4" pattern at 10 feet!!!), but i believe they're reduced charge loads, and i think it's just 9 count 2 3/4", though i'm not sure.

I love the 15 pellet 00 buck stuff. It's like unloading a whole mag of 9mm rounds at someone with every pull of the trigger.

Like Sniper said the effective range is upto about 35 meters, but they are REALLY dangerous upto that point. The beauty of a shotgun is they are really easy to handle in the dark or a chaotic situation. You tend to point a shotgun (that's why the gun needs to fit and have a proper stock), whereas you have to aim a rifle. And a point and shoot solution would be best for a home defence wepon.

BTW, i'd reccomend you put a tritium bead sight on it. Trijicon sells them. That should be all the sighting system you need for any forseeable defensive situation.

If you want to add more range, just in case the zombies come, get some 3" magnum rifled slugs. They're good to about 65meters in an 18" smoothbore bbl.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1252050972.jpg
My 870
the first 2 to come out are #8's They won't go through walls. this is a habit I had developed when I had kids living here.
the next 2 are 00 buck, if I need more than the 8's to get my point across,
the last 3 are slugs. escalation of force type of thing.
I hope I am never in a situation where I will find out of my selection of shells is correct.
As for not using a pistol grip, and having a full stock. With my 18-1/4 barrel and the pistol grip, this thing is as easy to "sweep" the house for intruders as a pistol. The longer you make a gun the more room you need to swing it. it is all a matter of preference and what the gun is designed for.

I got a side swing 590 with pistol grip and pistol foregrip. No trouble aiming with a pistol grip with the stock extended. Not a fan of the pistol fore grip. Not too nice to shoot with stock retracted.

Does anyone make a flared barrel (blunderbuss type) or other shotgun mod for even more spread? Would it be a good idea?

Edit: Seems the shot could be carried in a plastic sabot that is designed to open up and disperse the shot, upon exiting the barrel. I found this patent

BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

The present invention relates to ammunition for shot-guns, and more particularly to a sabot for a shot-gun shell capable of enhancing shot dispersion.

Conventional shot-gun shells are designed to control shot patterns at ranges of engagement typical of sporting applications. Such engagements vary from a short range of approximately 20 meters, typical of upland game shooting, to extreme ranges of 40-50 meters, typical of water fowling.

Law enforcement agencies have endeavored to exploit the advantages of large shot patterns available from such weapons to improve the effectiveness of law enforcement personnel engaged in close range antipersonnel actions. Current technology, however, has not produced a shot shell and weapon capable of providing a high dispersion of shot at the short ranges typical of building clearing operations, for example. Shooting engagement ranges for such operations are usually on the order of 5 to 15 meters, where shot dispersion pattern diameters range from approximately 5 to 20 centimeters. These small diameter patterns do not materially enhance the probability of hitting the personnel target. In fact single projectile, burst fire and semi-automatic weapons are becoming more popular due primarily to the large dispersion pattern of shots.

SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION


Accordingly, it is an object of the present invention to provide a shot shell design which when used in a conventional shot gun will achieve an enhanced pellet dispersion pattern in short-range antipersonnel engagements.

It is a further object of the present invention to provide a sabot for use in a standard shot shell which enhances pellet dispersion for short-range antipersonnel engagements.

It is another object of the present invention to provide a sabot which deforms after launch as a consequence of existing propellant gases and in such a manner as to release a broad pattern of shot at short range.

It is yet another object of the present invention to provide a sabot which is launched in a conventional manner and as a consequence of an additional charge is made to deform after launch in such a manner as to release an even broader pattern of shot at short range.

It is still another object of the present invention to provide an economical device for enhancing the dispersion of shot without the use of mechanical chokes or similar mechanisms.

These objects and others not specifically enumerated are accomplished with a sabot provided with a recess in its base upon which propellant gases may act to radially expand and flatten the sabot thereby enhancing the dispersion of shot.

In alternate embodiments the recess may be conoidal, parabolic, pyramidal, or an involute surface resembling a cone. The recess may also be comprised of multiple overlapping layers. Each recess provides a unique shot pattern for shortrange antipersonnel engagements.

In other embodiments, the foregoing recesses are provided with grooves to facilitate petalling of the recess and radial expansion or flattening of the sabot during and after launch.

In another embodiment, the recess is filled with propellant and capped with a consumable plug to delay ignition and to increase deformation of the sabot, further enhancing shot dispersion.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5189251.html

Also interesting shotshells mentioned here

http://www.zombiesurvivalwiki.com/page/Shotgun+Ammo

Skip ahead to 0:38 to see flamethrower shotshell. I suppose utterly impractical but sort of cool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzCYFg-gYUk

If I lived out where you live, I would not use light bird shot either. I would definitely want the punch at longer shotgun ranges provided by buckshot.

I wouldn't want to get hit by either one of our choices.

Here is my reasoning for my seemingly contradicting choices in handgun vs. shotgun ammo. First, with a handgun, we only get to make one hole for every pull of the trigger. I want that hole to go all the way through and have an exit wound. I want to ventilate whatever it is on both sides, from any angle. In my experience out hunting, an exit wound drops big animals faster than just an entrance wound. Frangible bullets that will not make an exit wound will still only make about the same entrance wound. Granted, they tear things up on the inside, but if they only do so at a shallow depth, I have found they do not drop game as quickly as a hole all the way through, even if it is a much smaller hole.

Even the most powerful hanguns would make for pretty underpowered rifle rounds. With a rifle, we have the power to do both - penetrate completely and expand violently. We do not have that kind of power with a handgun, so we must choose one or the other. I choose deep penetration and an exit wound, based on actual field experience with both. I carry that prejudice over to self-defense ammo as well.

Shotguns are a different breed of cat. Power-wise, they land between handguns and rifles. That whole multiple projectile thing changes the game, however. When they are all spread apart (at typical bird hunting ranges), the light pellets won't penetrate anything tougher than a dove. They won't even go all the way through one of those. Buckshot will go all the way through, if you are lucky enough for one of the 9 to 12 pellets to actually hit it. Therein lies the tradeoff - penetration vs. pattern density. Hundreds of #9's are far more likely to find one hitting a dove at hunting ranges.

But we are not talking hunting ranges, we are talking self defense ranges. Out to 10-15 yards, all those #9's are still together in a tightly clustered little mass. So is buckshot or any other shotgun shot. They work as a group, and penetrate as a group. Even individually, they retain a great deal more energy than they have at 20-30 yards. What this all adds up to is essentially individual pellets working together as one mass, providing a great deal more penetration than one would expect. That solid mass of #9's will go right through a man, a wall, a car windshield, your floor, whatever - provided it is close enough. Inside the house is "close enough". Your neighbors' houses are not.

The other huge advantage to hundreds of little #9's is that they provide more cutting edges. They make one hell of a lot nastier wound than buckshot or slugs. They will make absolute hamburger out of any soft tissue or bone in about a fist sized hole. No one gets up from that.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on self defense loads with handguns and shotguns. They seem contradictory at first, but the key I am looking for is enough penetration. The shotgun achieves enough penetration, at least at defensive ranges, with light bird shot. It achieves as much penetration as my hard cast handgun bullets. That's all I'm looking for.

my first round is rubber buckshot the rest is 00.

Believe me, 6 shots of buckshot loads from a Benneli M2 fired in the genneral direction (less than 25 meters) in quick succession will do the trick.

No funny sights or slugs, you might as well use a rifle instead if you are going to shoot like this.

1 aimed shot will do the same thing in a fraction of the time.

For a while I used -I think- a Stevens 77 12 ga. 18 inch pump with options of 00 or the darts, pleshets, (sp) they were impressive. I still think hearing a 12ga chamber a round in the dark is something to pay attention to.