Water Heater Installation

Shaun @ Tru6 · 10-29-2009, 10:55 AM

I'm putting a 30 or 40 gallon water heater in at work to help with cleaning screens. the new enviro-friendly citrus-water-based cleaners are OK, but hot water really helps.

Any tips/tricks/must do's for installation?

If not used regularly, will heating the extra 10 gallons of a 40 gal. add a whole lot to my energy bill? Wondering what keeping all that water ready at temp will do to my already big e- bill.

Brands? GE, Sears, Whirlpool. Home Depot has a 40 gallon GE at $250, $50 less than their 30 gallon. A Sears 30 is $280. Whirlpool much higher than both.

Hugh R · 10-29-2009, 10:57 AM

Shaun, look at the instant hot water tankless ones. If you don't need it much the increased capital cost may offset the savings in electricity. Nice thing is they're small and you can maybe put it right under your sink.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 10-29-2009, 11:04 AM

Thanks Hugh! Any recommendations? I did a quick search and found that the cheapest was about $500 and was poorly rated.

I have no idea how I would be able to do a proper cost analysis comparing the two. I look forward to the day when e- comes into your home and you know exactly what e- source is using what $e- on your computer.

LMK if you know of something good that won't break the bank.

flatbutt · 10-29-2009, 11:07 AM

Shaun I have a tankless at home and it was expensive to buy and install plus it runs on LP. But it is a fabulous unit by Norge. Do you have LP or NG at work?

Shaun @ Tru6 · 10-29-2009, 11:18 AM

I've got 240.

MBAtarga · 10-29-2009, 11:26 AM

How much hot water do you need available for cleaning the screens? Why pay to keep an extra 10 gallons hot if 30 gallons is more than you'd need at one time? For inconsistent use (cleaning only), unless your utilities are very high, I would think there would be a very long term pay-off on going tankless. Now if you needed a fairly steady flow of hot water, tankless would probably pay off sooner.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 10-29-2009, 12:04 PM

I can spend 2-4 hours cleaning screens with a pressure washer., so about .5 to 1 hour continuous water. It's not too much of a problem stopping and waiting for the tank to fill up again. Always something else to do. I am considering also converting a bathroom to a shower, but again, I think 30 will be more than enough the times I want to take a shower at work before going out...easy to get very dirty here with both LT production and the cars.

ben parrish · 10-29-2009, 05:36 PM

Tankless is great for the right application but I think, based on your needs, that a conventional water heater is the way to go. Tankless heaters are known to be short lived (I went through quiet a few of them in a resort I ran) and are very expensive. Compare the energy used of the standard heater with the tankless heater. Factor in the initial purchase price and the average lifespan and tankless rarely makes sense for most people.
Get the 40 gallon and be done with it. The "extra cost" to heat 10 more gallons over 30 is neglegible due to the thermal efficiency of todays heaters. I just, last weekend, replaced my old 30 gallon with a 40 gallon heater from home depot. The new heater uses less electricity than the smaller, old one.
Ben

turbo6bar · 10-29-2009, 07:02 PM

Electric is an expensive way to heat water. Before going with tankless, I'd get a standard water heater (30 or 40 gal) and supplement with solar water heating tubes. You are eligible for the 30% federal tax credit for the solar heating equipment. Thing is if you have to replace your existing tank, now is the time to spring for the stainless tank with internal heat exchanger designed for solar heating. It would not surprise me if your electricity needs for water heating would go to zero.

Otherwise, the Home Depot 40 gallon GE sounds good, particularly if it is already cheaper than the 30 gallon model. Buy some extra insulation for the tank, and you could spring for the heat traps for a little extra efficiency. jurgen

Danny_Ocean · 10-29-2009, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

I can spend 2-4 hours cleaning screens with a pressure washer., so about .5 to 1 hour continuous water.

Why not get a "heated" pressure washer? They come in propane, electric and gas.

look 171 · 10-30-2009, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ben parrish

Tankless is great for the right application but I think, based on your needs, that a conventional water heater is the way to go. Tankless heaters are known to be short lived (I went through quiet a few of them in a resort I ran) and are very expensive. Compare the energy used of the standard heater with the tankless heater. Factor in the initial purchase price and the average lifespan and tankless rarely makes sense for most people.
Get the 40 gallon and be done with it. The "extra cost" to heat 10 more gallons over 30 is neglegible due to the thermal efficiency of todays heaters. I just, last weekend, replaced my old 30 gallon with a 40 gallon heater from home depot. The new heater uses less electricity than the smaller, old one.
Ben

What was the cause of the problem? Did you run vinegar through the system every so often to clean it? I really want to know. You know they recommend a filter to get rid of all the hard water deposit. That will kill the unit. I have been pushing them for 10 years now on all my projects. The first one we install is still kicking. Many people do not know all the ins and out of an installation. Many plummers think they can insatll it like a regular water heater.

Paul T · 10-30-2009, 01:54 AM

I'd go with a standard, not tankless. I wish I could find it, but there was a good paper I read that compared the cost benefit between standard and tank less, and in higher use applications the tank less ended up costing more to run.

Installation should be simple, just make sure you use dielectric unions for the pipe fittings - it will go a long way in increasing longevity of the tank.

ben parrish · 10-30-2009, 07:34 AM

The scale wasn't the problem as the water supply came from a watermaker that filtered out "everything". I think that mild power surges were killing the circuit boards. We used them in the restrooms and marina showers. I do like the idea but I still believe that the
cost/ benefit ratio is more favorable for standard heaters for most applications.. Solar is a definate cost saver! You can retro your existing electric tank for about $150.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 11-05-2009, 06:54 AM

I've decided on the GE 40 gal heater and to put a shower into the spare bathroom that was the silk screen washout room.

I've got one major line coming in from cold. this currently feeds two bathrooms (one was the silkscreen washout room) and the outside sink (where the silkscreen washout tub is now). One small hot line coming in from the 4 gallon mini-heater that feeds both bathrooms and the outside tub,

Adding in the shower, should I leave the existing hot line alone (leave it for working bathroom and cap the existing line into the shower room) and plump a T from the cold AFTER cold for both bathrooms and into the 40 gallon heater and then plumb from water heater to both pressure washer and shower control valve?

Does that make sense?

Bathroom to be shower. Toilet will be shower drain.

Luan with one coat of poly stain and rubbed down with steel wool. going to panel the shower area with the luan and accent with Al strip. Will make the shower base from home foam insulation and some triax carbon fiber I've had for ages. hoping to find some banker's glass on CL.

gr8fl4porsche · gr8fl4porsche's Garage

The Luan will be the shower walls? That will not last long if you use it much. The exposure to a moist area (not even counting the direct water from the shower) will ruin the Luan quickly.
Even if you put numerous coats of poly on the wood, eventually it will develop some pinholes and cracks, then a little more moisture will get in, then the crack will get bigger, you see the progression here.

Water heaters need to be fed with a 3/4 inch feed. Take 3/4" or larger from the source and T off near the heater to feed the heater and all other appliances. You can go down to half inch when you get close to the appliances.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 11-05-2009, 08:32 AM

Thanks Randy. I've got a 1 1/2 cold feed so should be easy to pull 3/4 off of that.

On the luan walls, I'm going to waterproof them with thompson's or whatever outside deck waterproofing I can find at the local hardware store. If it doesn't last, I'll let it dry for a week and put tile over it.

Danny_Ocean · 11-05-2009, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

On the luan walls, I'm going to waterproof them with thompson's or whatever outside deck waterproofing I can find at the local hardware store. If it doesn't last, I'll let it dry for a week and put tile over it.

Don't waste your time. It won't last. Get some 1/4" cement backer board and waterproof that. Do a quickie tile/grout job and you're good for a long time.

Or, if you're cheap/lazy (like me), get some plastic/fiberglass corrugated panels (the kind they use for roofing garden sheds, etc.). Those would repel water and make it feel like you're showering at summer camp.

flatbutt · 11-05-2009, 08:50 AM

why not green board or even wonder board?

Danny_Ocean · 11-05-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flatbutt

why not green board or even wonder board?

Green board is water resistant, not waterproof. Good for bathroom walls/ceilings, not the best for shower walls.

Wonderboard (brand name) = cement board/backer board/tile board.

Shaun @ Tru6 · 11-05-2009, 09:24 AM

showering probably 6 times a month, at the most, the wood will last a while I think. I can get 1/4 thick cement sheet. Friends of mine covered their modern house with it, affixed with SS allen head cap bolts. very cool stuff.