Marv,

Henry makes them. They call them the "Survival", not AR7 any more. Same gun. If you try to have something to survive with, they beat the pistol - more accurate and a bit more power.

George

My room mate has one of those AR7s... Gave 50 bucks for it at a gun show...

I've had miine for almost 30 years, kept as a survival tool. Haven't payed much attention to them, but I thought something that breaks down like it does wouldn't be available in today's liberal minded world.

All a bunch of (good) excuses to carry a gun along. I am more worried about two legged predators - pot farms and meth kitchens are more likely to be encountered than a man eating cougar.

In CA when bow hunting during archery season you may not carry a gun. I have gotten used to run around with just a bow in cougar and bear country.

George

The best way to stay safe from bears is to carry a bear tag and a large caliber gun. They'll never cross your way. ;)

G

lol!

I had the pistol version of that Charter Arms thing, I had two different barrels, interchangable, for it and thought I would make a silencer with one. I never did and that is a good thing. It also had the banana clip.

I like that idea SO MUCH better than the FN FiveseveN.

Much as I absolutely despise plastic pistols, I'm going to have to try one out. Kel-tec sure has caught my attention the past year (RFB, now this).

I saw a guy open carrying a 5.7 in the grocery store last week. Man, I'd worry about overpenetration with a gun like that in polite society. I shot Jordi's. It's a cool gun, but not for me.

While it's less than ideal for protection vs bears, with 31rds at your disposal it would probably actually be fine vs cats. As Jeff and RPK have pointed out here in the past, they are not robust animals. It would certainly be fine vs coyotes and wolves if you're aiming at the right spots.

And i sure as hell know that as a person i would not want to start getting sprayed with .22 magnum rounds!!!

However, what does give me pause about it in any sort of defensive role is the fact that it's a rimfire. Rimfires have an annoying tendency to not always go bang when you pull the trigger. Even top quality rimfire ammunition has a failure to fire rate far too high for self defense IMNSHO.

Now if this thing was chambered for .22 hornet or something, with a 6" barrel....

With a 6" barrel it would just about match FN FiveSeven ballistics.

However, as a rimfire, to me it is just an EXTREMELY interesting curiosity. They should retail for about $350 after the initial craze dies down. Maybe i'll pick one up down the road, just for the hell of it.

Actually you can get 9mm Parabellum rounds that will easily kill a bear with a single well placed shot.

Look up Double Tap 147gr max SAAMI pressure FMJ-Flat Nose. 1135fps muzzle velocity (420ft-lbs energy) from a Glock 17. That round has immense penetration in ballistic gelatin and will definitely take down a black or a brown bear with one good hit to the noggin'. It's extremely accurate in my P7 too. Great stuff. I bought a couple 50rd boxes for work. I keep one of my spare mags for my P7 loaded with the stuff.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/cat...mm%20147FP.JPG
Double Tap 147gr 9mm+P++ FMJ

When i want an expanding round in 9mm i use the new Cor Bon Powrball 100gr JHP at 1500fps/480+ ft-lbs. It's the first lightweight 9mm hollow point i've ever seen that achieves the 12" mandatory all barrier ballistic gelatin penetration requirement of the FBI.

Double tap's 115gr 9mm+P+ JHP load is super hot and used to use the excellent speer gold dot hollow point, but speer stopped making them available to other companies, so they're using a match oriented super shallow cavity "Montana Gold" hollow point now. In the testing i saw with the MG hollowpont it penetrated deeper than most 9mm FMJ rounds because even at full expansion the round barely hit's .40caliber and is cooking along at about 1425+ fps from a 4" barrel!!! That would probably penetrate a brown/black bear skull too.

A third alternative is NATO spec Winchester "Q" M882 124gr +P FMJ military ammunition. While not nearly as hot as the double tap FMJ round, it is still a good deal hotter than most FMJ rounds and should be robust/powerful enough to defeat a bear skull.

For anti-badguy stuff if any of you can get your hands on some of the Double Tap Gold Dot 115gr, that stuff is probably the ultimate 9mm SD ammo on earth. At 515 real world ft-lbs from a glock 21 and using the state of the art Gold Dot hollowpoint you are essentially carrying a full power .357 magnum round in your 9mm auto.

Sadly i've not been able to find anyone willing to part with any. I talked to Double Tap via email and they said if speer starts sending them bullets again they'll start using them again. One can only hope.

At any rate, while 9mm is big enough for trail defense vs bears and such, .22 WMR is most certainly not. The new Kel Tec is still super cool though. 31 rounds in a real pistol....wow.

This is my hiking gun, also a Kel Tec:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...keltecipod.jpg
It's only a .32, but the hard cast lead "elmer keith" flat nose style rounds pictured will penetrate 15.5" of ballistic gelatin(well above the FBI penetration requirements in full power large caliber police ammunition), it holds 11 shots, and it's got a freakin' lazer mounted on it. :D

Mr. Higgins can attest to the killing and penetrating power of hard cast lead hunting bullets.

But the main thing the P32 has going for it, the main thing any trail gun should have going for it, is it's light weight and small size. I was just walking on the horse trails in Pennypack Park a couple weeks ago with it clipped into my back pocket the whole time. It's so light and thin it's like it's not even there.

But it is. Always.

I need to get my licence.

With our very dense, rainforest like woods here on the west side of the Washington Cascades and out on our Olympic Penninsula, we have reportedly become the meth capitol of the United States. Lots of little camp trailers get drug around our woods and left for a couple of days then moved, and lots of semi-permanent shacks get thrown up. I've stumbled into a few. Far more intimidating than a sow with cubs...

I'm not a bow hunter, but I do believe they have won the right to carry a sidearm for protection/survival here in Washington. It only makes sense when out in the wilderness. Denying a man that most fundemental of needs points to a rather deep disconnect from the realities of wilderness survival on the part of our Game Department personel, many of whom have learned all they ever will learn about it from a college classroom and the seat of a pickup truck. But that's another story...

When I was surveying in Alaska I carried a 44 mag. Most of the other guys carried a Remington 870 folding stock velcroed to their backpack. One of my fellow workers killed a black bear with his 44 while hiking on a bear trail. He surprised the bear and it charged him. I was glad I never got into that position, I just shot it once in awhile when hiking on bear trails to let them know I was around.

Sniper; is this the same stuff from ammunitiontogo?

Ammunition To Go : 50rds - 9mm Speer LE Gold Dot 124gr. HP Ammo [53618] - $24.95
http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/catalo...20+p+%20HP.jpg

I agree with Jeff that carrying in the back country is prudent. I have been carrying a
Springfield XD45 and although it's a polymer frame gun, I wish it were smaller and lighter. Then again, if the unthinkable happened, I'd have 13 rounds of .45 caliber bullets to deliver. Plus maybe another clip. Bears carry revolvers, so I'd have the advantage in a long gunfight.

I fully agree.

Speer is the maker of the Gold Dot bullet, but their own ammunition is loaded to standard velocity. The Double Tap rounds i was referring to in my last post are loaded to maximum pressure (the mythical "+p++") and also used to use the Speer Gold Dot bullet. Many experts(including a PA state trooper i know who does a lot of ballistics testing for the state) say the Gold Dot is the best hollowpoint design of all time. Driven to maximum velocity it is an extremely nasty round.

If DT starts selling their 115gr Gold Dot load again i will be sure to start a thread on it here to give you lads a heads up. In the meantime i've been using CorBon Powrball. 100gr "plugged" hollowpoint at 1500fps. That round exceeds the energy levels of most 110gr .357 magnum loads as well.

Hehehe :D

If my .32 isn't enough gun i can carry my HK P7 with any of the "anti bear" rounds i listed in my first post. But in philly, a slick little .32 auto is plenty good enough....since all the predators around here have 2 legs.

I did a little digging around.

This is damned near exactly the same as the Grendel P30. A 30-round .22 WMR handgun designed and sold by Mr. George Kelgren from 1990 to 1994 before the hi-cap ban.

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/2...ndelp30pj3.jpg

There was a carbine version, the R-31, available as well.

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/1...oped001rk2.jpg

Kel-tec is owned by...Mr. George Kelgren.