Signed my wife up for CPL class...
 

I signed my wife up for a basic firearms class and a CPL (Concealed Pistol License) class for January at our local range/gun shop. I also bought her a Ruger LCP in .380ACP since her hands are too small for my pistols. The instructor is fantastic and I've known her for awhile. The classes are "women only" and my wife's friend is taking the same classes, so there's less "intimidation" for them. I'll take Beth to the same range and get her familiar with her new pistol after Christmas and we'll break-in the Ruger LCP.

Beth can't handle anything larger from a carry perspective and I've shot the Ruger LCP myself and I believe it will be right for her. I reload .380 so we'll have plenty of range ammo and I have quite a bit of high quality commercial ammo for carrying purposes.

Beth and I can now go to the range together and that will make the weekly target shooting even more enjoyable as we like to do things together... She bought me a Beretta 92FS for Christmas 13 years ago and now I'm returning the favor with the "baby" Ruger!

Well done, Art. The "women only" classes are an exceedingly good idea. Many of us guys simply do not realize how intimidating the whole thing can be for our wives and girlfriends. A husband or boyfriend trying to teach them adds immensely to that intimidation factor. No matter how good we think we are, how comfortable around guns we may be, it is better to seek professional training for any adult - regardless of gender - when getting them started.

I'm signed up for a class here in April, a friend's wife is taking the class with me.

As an aside, is the 92FS the civillian version of the M9? My bro-in-law just got back from A-stan and I know he wanted an M9. I was thinking of getting him one....

transition her quickly from a mouse gun to a 9mm or .38 with light loads.

why? POR QUI?

A) HEADSHOTS ONLY WITH MOUSE GUNS

B)womens are squeamish about killing thangs, headshots KILL!

C) as an owner of multiple .380's .32,.25,.22 MOUSE GUNS shooting a badguy in the torso is not the best way to stop threat. no matter who you are how good you are or how bad ass your round is.

D) a .380 has quite the SNAP/BARK/HAND JIVE in anyones hand. you must hold them with a death grip so they dont BITE. ie. the slide. a loose hand grip invites a major OUCH on web of hand. nature of the beast as they are small.

E) have fun finding mouse gun ammo. dont ask me why?

F) a mouse gun is ONLY to be used as a LAST RESORT or a BACKUP! trust me on this juan as i have read the hell out of ballistics/viewed TONS of gelatin testing, and shot the hell out of them at small creatures numerous times.

G) in az the MINIMUM you can carry for your AZCCW class is 9mm or .38-PERIOD!

H) a semi is difficult for womens

I) a model 60 blue or stainless smith und vesson is perfect for womens. NOBODY EVER RAPED A .38. and thats why my soon to be wifey poo packs a FREEKING smith und vesson stainless model 60 .38 with nasty ass federal hollowpoints.


and that is MOUSE-OLOGY 101 for today.

Yep!
 

Yep! The Beretta 92FS is the same pistol as the military M(. M( is the military nomenclature for it... Nice pistol, just too large for concealed carry.

Ccw
 

Art;

When is the class??? Pat wants a CWP too. Maybe they could attend together.

I've discussed this with my wife. Whenever there is a crime that disturbs her, she thinks about a pistol permit. But...

She can't pull the trigger. If she can't pull the trigger, there is no reason to carry. Anyone who thinks a criminal is going to poo himself and give up, because someone racks a slide or just points a gun, is deluding themselves. If this is what you do, you have shown the criminal you do not have a lot of experience with the gun. And if you can't bring yourself to pull the trigger, then it will get taken away from you and used against you.

I think the LCP is a good choice. Nice that you handload and could come up with some target ammo that's a bit 'milder' than most of the factory stuff. Some of the european ammo has some sting when shooting.
You may consider adding a Crimson Trace laser (even though it about doubles the price of the outfit). Makes it a lot easier to hit something and has some tactical advantages as well.
Jim

MOUSE-OLOGY 101=HEADSHOTS!!!!!!!


shooting someone and not stopping the threat is going to instinctively PISS THE BAD GUY OFF into doing something even more drastic than the initial threat. ie. robbery becomes RED-RUM(MUR-DERR).


your first clue of a women and how she reacts to the sight of a gun "oh thats cute" means its TOO SMALL!

when a women makes the remark "wow thats kind of big, i dont know if i can shoot that!" is your clue that she needs proper training to become proficient and confident in her actions.


as mentioned AZCCW will only allow you to take the CCW course with a minimum of a .38 or a 9mm.


the very best gun for any women is a wheel gun. they always go BANG! no racking slides, no clearing FTE or FTF's. and that confuzes the hell out of them because of the "moving parts."


your smartest bet to get her confident at this is to take a brick of .22's out to BFE and let her get used to FTF and FTE operations with a semi auto .22.

then transition to the .380 and then to a 9mm if yer hell bent on giving her a semi auto.

now is she gonna pack on her hip, in her jacket or her purse? probably her purse. does she have a concealed carry purse? can she get the damn thing out of her purse in 1-2 seconds and rack one in and fire? probably not with all the crap women place in their purses.


sooooooooooo............thats why a wheel gun is BEST!


what im getting at is this has to be FREEKING FAST TO STOP THE THREAT cuz her life depends on it. so a simple armed robbery turns to RED-RUMM(MURR-DERR) because bad guy now has an empty gun pointed at him (which he doesnt know) and he fires at her to save his worthless ass. catch my drift on this????????????


"cute" DONT GIT IT in the REAL WORLD! crap happens VERY VERY FAST AND CLOSE! simple and effective STOPS THE THREAT!

Pat,
The basic handgun class is 1/24 and the CPL class is 1/30, the cost is $200 for boith. If you wanrt to sign Pat up, you better hurry as those classes fill up fast! The CPL class is "women only" and Cheryl Hill is teaching both and she's great!

"Day after Christmas" pistol range trip!
 

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Ruger LCP, Remington Model 51 and Ortgies pistols...

now teach her to shoot at the head while the target advances. here in airyzoney they actually use a full size lifelike man target on wheels that advances on you faster than snot, with his right hand clutching a knife. and you get to pull from a concealed position and see if ya STOP the threat with PROPER hits.


mouse gun= head shots


9mm or .38 and above = center mass

now repeat after me(for standard calibers): double tap chest,double tap head,double tap chest.double tap head-reload-repeat if threat not down. if not down shoot for head or femoral artery(groin or lower area) because they have body armor on.

.460 Rowland is the answer. I don't care what body armor you have on, if nothing else the kinetic energy is going to knock the wind out of you after 2 shots of that.

yes im sure she will be packing (juan-1) on each hip, and (2) in crossdraw holsters across her chest, and another in her purse!

I'm gonna say this, and it is not neccesarily a knock against you, my comments are in general.

I think the tendency of men to buy women small caliber and pocket pistols is completely wrong headed (doubly so with new shooters), and there are a few reasons for this.

1) A Ruger LCP (or kel tec, etc) with full power loads is a light and pretty hard kicking little gun, with a small grip that is hard to get a hold of.

2) Small pocket pistols usually have crappy sights, which places a greater burden on the shooter than a sidearm with proper sights.

3) Small pocket pistol calibers are very weak, and require a greater degree of precision to wield effectively. IOW, someone with a pocket pistol should be more experienced with firearms, not less.

4) A woman- on average- is far less likely to be able to succeed in a hand to hand situation with a man if her weapon fails to stop.

5) In a time of great stress the muzzle blast and recoil of a large caliber weapon will not even be noticeable or perceptible to the actual shooter, who will be completely charged with endorphines and adrenaline. Many shooting survivors report not even hearing the gunshots at all. For this reason, the conventional wisdom that small/inexperienced/women need less recoil is 100% off base IMO.

6) The slide on small pocket pistols is often very hard for women to manipulate, especially in a time of stress, and potentially impossible with wet hands.

In my reasoned opinion, a woman should have significantly more gun than a man, and in a larger caliber- not less.

Both of the women relatives in my life that i am close to have .357 Ruger snubnosed Magnums loaded with full power 125gr jacketed hollowpoints, provided by me.

All this being said, any gun is better than no gun, and an experienced female shooter should be fine with a small pocket pistol, as long as it effectively stops the attacker.

The Ruger LCP is very similar to my Kel Tec. It is a good weapon with a good reputation already, good luck with it. By far the most powerful ammo on the market for .380 auto is made by Buffalo Bore, it nearly hits 300ft-lbs of muzzle energy from an LCP and is loaded with the excellent 2nd generation Gold Dot bonded core hollowpoint.

Also, the Crimson Trace laser unit sold for that model is extremely nice, compact, light, relatively inexpensive, and highly reliable.

I cannot recommend that modification strongly enough. A Kel Tec or LCP with a crimson trace laser becomes a far more useful weapon the instant you grip the weapon(it has a pressure sensor right under the trigger guard for auto on/off.

Here is my Kel Tec with a CT laser installed, the Ruger looks almost identical with a CT:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3...r/100_1967.jpg

Yes.

the .22 was cute,the .25 was cute,the .32 was cute, the .380 had a snap "OH MY!"

the 9mm with 147 hydrashocks was "OH MY MY!

the .38 toned down was "GOOD" but i had to work it and be firm with grip,point,squeeze..................we are still working it.


but i know damn well someone comes in her house , she will have a field day.


mind over "bang matter". practice 300 rds a month.

Are you sure you want your wife to have a loaded weapon on her at all times? Just remember to be very nice to her now... :D

theres a freeking downside to everyTHANG! you have NOW GIVEN UP YOUR "TIGER" rights!

Gentlemen,

All good points. We understand the limitations and shortcomings of the Ruger LCP but that's the best gun for my wife. She really likes the 1920 Remington Model 51 that she shot on Saturday but she's not carrying that! Her friend in the CPL class next month has a new Ruger LCR in .38 special and Beth will try that revolver, too. If she likes the LCR better, I'll get her that one and keep the LCP for a back-up gun.

I think that aiming for the head makes no sense unless you are a very highly trained fighter or are playing a shooting game with cardboard targets. I think that for normal people with good training, when actually under attack, you will do well to just hit the torso. As we all recall, someone here on PPOT was recently forced to shoot an attacker at very close range, and if I recall correctly I believe he wounded the man's finger.

If it was me, I would aim for center mass since I'm not that proficient a shooter yet.

I dunno if you all would consider this a 'mouse gun' or not but I primarily carry a SW Air Lite in 22 WMR. It is a seven shot wheel gun and I also installed Crimson Trace grips. Unloaded it weighs only ten ounces. If you have ever seen what a 22 Magnum hollow point does to flesh you know it unleashes some energy. I agree that under duress a head shot is gonna be very difficult so a center mass aim is the way to go. A second shot with a wheel gun is gonna be a lot more reliable than a semi auto and a couple of 22 mags in center mass is gonna put the guy down.

I am not really a gun guy and one reason I can't seem to get into them is the seemingly endless discussions about stopping power. Does it ever freakin' end?

I might be able to understand if you had to shoot a few people a week and had some hard evidence to base this stuff on other than shooting gel blocks and pig carcasses.

How many people have you guys shot that weren't deterred from what they were doing?

If your round fails, so does your life.

I think that explains the fascination people have with the latest, greatest bullet. Besides, guns are a hobby, so buying the latest/greatest this or that is just a way to enjoy your hobby more.

On the topic of Ammo, Az, this is by far the most powerful .380 auto ammo i have seen on the market:

Take your pick:

SKU: 27A/20 380 Auto +P Pistol and Handgun Ammo
380 Auto +P Ammo - 100 gr. Hardcast F.N. (1150fps/ M.E. 294 ft. lbs.) - 20 Round Box
$24.12

http://www.buffalobore.com/

I use buffalo bore hard cast lead FN bullets in my Kel Tec. It's pricey, but then again, you are relying on the stuff with your life.



Manufacturer: Buffalo Bore


SKU: 27C/20 380 Auto +P Pistol and Handgun Ammo
380 Auto +P Ammo - 90 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point (1200fps M.E. 288 ft. lbs. - 20 Round Box
$24.12




Manufacturer: Buffalo Bore

My only problem with relying on rimfires is that rimfire ammunition has a tendency to not always go "bang" when you pull the trigger.

.22 mag has decent performance, and is similiar in performance/energy to the best .32 auto ammunition i guess, but because it is a rim fire, i stay away.

If i was going to buy a .22 mag handgun, it would be this one. :)

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/w...r_30_2-tfb.jpg

The PMR-30 holds thirty shots of ammunition in the grip mag. :)

Thanks for that info. I'm surprised to hear you say that about rim fire ammo as I have never had that happen and shoot quite a lot. As for that Kel-Tec...it would not be legal in the People's Republic of Kalifornia. Also, as I said, I prefer wheel guns. I have two other hand guns on my carry permit both loaded with 38 +P. Still, I find myself carrying the SW Air Lite because it's so easy to stash and lite.

I'm the same way with my Kel Tec .32. I have larger, more powerful weapons i could carry, but the .32 wins every time because it's so damn small and handy.

I've had lots of problems in the past with rimfire ammo not going off. I must say i'm surprised it's never happened to you. BTW, i have a CT laser on my Kel Tec too....i'm with you, it's a great unit. :)

PS: The best part about my Pa carry permit is that it does not list a firearm type. I could carry an AR if i could conceal it. :)

Same here.

And in a real world situation I think a center of mass shot has a much great chance of a hit than does trying, under pressure, to make a head shot.

The simple fact that a torso is much larger than a head would dictate that observation to be true.

I practice taking head shots at the range all the time, but my CCW pistol does have a laser on it. That makes it a hell of a lot simpler IMO.

There are usually steps in any real world life-threatening confrontation:
1. Encounter
2. Realization that escape/etc. is not an option. Fear paralysation sets in.
3. (Ir)Rationalize some hope of negotiation, regardless of circumstance.
4. Need for engagement. Perp will either flee or do the stupid thing.
5. Engage with confidence.

It doesn't matter what caliber is chambered, an intended bullet not connecting to target is a useless bullet.

Women are less willing to automatically kill an intruder, so a "wounding" caliber is one that will be used with more confidence. Smaller caliber are also easier on the wrists to shoot off-angle, and produce less startling noise for the shooter. If there's a misfire with a wheel gun, pull the trigger again.
After up to six small-caliber bullets in them, most agressors are of the nature to flee or remain in place.

Kel-Tec pistols are not available in California, anyway. A S&W .38 or .357 would be a good choice.

Excuse me, choich

was in the gun store last weekend and was asking the clerk if he had any on hand since none were in the case...no, but they are coming in next week do want to order one? on the basis of the reviews, i said sure here's my deposit.

the LCP i have on order should be in my hands early next week. for those of you with one, how do you like it?
what are you doing for a holster? have a blackhawk pocket holster coming in at the same time.
saw on youtube some videos on converting a kel tec belt clip to work on the LCP anyone try this? looks easy, could probably mfg one myself off a pocket knife that fell apart this weekend.

*A small pistol is far more liable to jam if the mechanics of your wrist are wrong than a large one is. The term for it is "limp wristing." It is a common problem among weak handed/wristed people that take up shooting pocket pistols.

* A smaller, shorter barreled gun will be even louder than a normal sized one. Pocket pistols invariably have very short barrels, so are very loud. Of course, as i pointed out, many shooting survivors never even hear the gunshots, or perceive muzzle blast or recoil at all. The adrenaline blocks all that out, making it inconsequential. So that is not even a consideration that i look at.

*Those with weak hands tend to find the action on a small pocket pistol to be very difficult to operate, even more so than a large caliber automatic like a 1911A1 .45 auto. If you cannot operate the slide reasonably well on any gun, you should not be using it. This is one of the key reasons that a pocket pistol is a bad choice for most women. They will struggle mightily with the slide.

*In a life or death situation you may have time to get off only a single round before your attacker is upon you. A single .357 magnum probably has about 200% more chance to stop an attacker immediately with a single hit than a .32 auto does, and probably 100% more chance than a .380 does...given identical shot placement. If you're a man and you have to struggle hand to hand with a shot and wounded aggressor it's bad enough. For a woman- who is much weaker physically- to have to do it, it's liable to be fatal for her.

*Finally, i do not believe that a woman is any more or less likely to be gripped with fear/paralysis, or be less likely to kill.

That is actually the exact opposite of my experience. In my experience, women can be quite cold and heartless...

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:D

There are plenty of holsters on the market for the KT/Ruger(it is an almost direct bite off the KT anyway).

You may have problems pocket carrying the Ruger, it is a good deal larger than a .32 KT, and a little heavier than a .380 KT, and many KT owners say that the .32 is far easier to conceal in a pocket than a .380 KT.

Let us know. ;)

I have the DeSantis Nemesis ($20) holster. I'm getting the Wolff spring kit to adjust the action for a little less recoil and to stop the ejected brass from flying 20ft away and to the front (ahead of the firing line). Because I reload, I want to recover my brass during range sessions. Lube the slide generously before firing the LCP , especially the 2st time and put at least 100 rounds through it to break it in...

This site has a lot of pertinent info...

elsiepeaforum.com

Anyone here have any .380 brass that they want to sell? I'm reloading it and I have everything I need but enough brass to reload. Thanks!

I just reloaded the 200 .380 ACP cartridges that we shot last Saturday. Pretty good turn-around time!

Reloading can be a lot of fun. I haven't done it in about 10 years or so, maybe i should start again.

Sniper,
Yes, you should! Reloading keeps me out of trouble during thew long MI winters. I reload all winter, visit the range weekly and the winter goes by much faster!! Components are hard to get, but that just makes it more of a challenge for me...