Q for Machine Shop guys.....

[cashflyer]

I am getting ready to put a mill and lathe in our shop at work, and am trying to decide what is the best bang for the buck.

We won't be doing production work on them... they are more for special projects and for allowing us to build our own special tooling, jigs, etc. (and random Porsche related projects)

I do not know what my exact budget allowance will be, but I know that cost will be a factor. (thus needing best bang for buck)

My known options are:
>Buy used or refurbished name-brand stuff (IE: Bridgeport, Brown & Sharpe)
>Buy new import stuff (IE: Jet, Enco)


Give me your suggestions and reasoning, please.

[asphaltgambler]

We need to get a little closer to what spec-------

Find out what your approx budget is because that will way-narrow down to what the given choices would be. No sense in discussing equipment needs when you don't know the $$

[cashflyer]

Because we have done just fine without these tools for 6 years, this means they are not going to be considered necessities. I am currently putting together a funding proposal that will include these with a lot of other tools that ARE necessities. But this means that these will be the first things cut from the list if the request is too big.

This is just a number pulled from a hat, but let's say that $15k to $20k needs to buy a mill, a lathe, and all associated tooling and fixtures.


Just for a reference point, in my last shop (same type business) I had a Cubic 16x40 gap bed lathe and a Chevalier 9x48 knee mill with 2-axis DRO.
I was not involved in the purchasing of those items.

[ODDJOB UNO]

buy what IS SUPPORTED LOKAL!

nothing worse than needing part and you cant find it. or you cant get it serviced.


lots of junk out there. buying from reputable machine tool shop is a good deal as they will support it.


buying a "deal" cheap that isnt supported and nojuan knows which hut it was made in taiwan/korea/china is always an invitation to machine down time. and as we all know "machine no worky-you makey NO MOO-LA!"


write list of what metals you plan to work with. then you can figure out coated/uncoated carbides and tooling speeds and feeds.


call in sandvick/mitsuibishi/kennametal reps and have them test carbide grades

[Tim Hancock]

Because they are not "necessities", I personally would buy the used HD equipment for less money. Of course you have to be sure to not buy wore out junk.

[RWebb]

somewhere out a few miles from your town is an old barn with a used Bridgeport in it...

otherwise, a bunch of stuff from India started coming into the US a few decades ago - I hear some of it was pretty good

[cashflyer]

Probably 90% of the metal that we cut at the old shop was aluminum.
We used mostly Kennemetal tooling. Some carbide insert tools, some steel tools.
There is a local dealer for Cubic and Chevalier, which is why we had those brands.

As Tim warns, I worry about getting worn out junk if I buy used. Some of those big brands have not been made in over 20 years, and some of the machines on the internet are much older than that. If a machine is already on a skid, ready to ship, it is hard to tell if it is worn out or not.

This is why I was considering the Import path - but OJU makes a very good point about getting parts. Even on the Cubic brand lathe it may be a problem, as I no longer see manual lathes on their website. I can't imagine what it would take to get parts for a Taiwanese made Enco machine.

Perhaps I will ask my friend, who owns a machine shop, to help me source some QUALITY used American machines.

[sammyg2]

EDIT: just went back and saw your budget, for that price you wil prolly have to go with used so much of the following might not apply:

In the machine industry you don't shop for a machine, you shop for a supplier.
Find someone you trust that other shops use and are happy with, someone who has a proven track record. Someone who has been in business a long time and has built up a good rep.
Then talk to them and trust them. The good ones are in business for the long haul and won't steer you wrong. the bad ones only care about one sale and will try to sell you junk.


But based on past experience here's my opinion (it's worth what you paid for it)
As far as lathes go:

They don't make them like they used to but there's nothing like a new lathe smell.
I'be been faced with similar situations many times.

I've bought reconditioned lathes only to have quality issues and repeated repairs. The "recondition" part sometimes only means a new paint job. If you buy a used or reconditioned piece, has a master machinist run it and make parts with it. Often the ways are shimmed to be good in one speot

I've bought a few new lathes and have been pretty lucky.

You probably can't find new American stuff or afford new Japanese made which isn't necessarily a bad thing, they are like snap-on tools. Mostly hype and price but the slightly higher quality is not justified.
Pretty doesn't make you money.

Chinese lathes are getting better but still aren't that good. Not bad, just not good yet. Give em another 10 years and they'll be some of the best stuff out there.

Taiwan-made is good stuff nowadays but is starting to get expensive.

South Korean equipment provides the best bang for the buck IMO.
I'm talking 36" x 120" lathes and such.

Now for the mill:
There are a gazillion bridgeports out there and they are dirt cheep.
You should be able to get a good reconditioned bridgeport with a warranty for not very much money. I'd go that way before I bought a new mill.

As far as availability of parts? Unless you are talking about a great big horizontal mill or something really obscure, just about any decent repair shop can get parts.

BTW don't skimp on DRO's, they are money well spent. CNC is a total waste of $$$$ unless you are getting into production runs. One-offs and custom work doesn't justify CNC.

Don't go for fancy or the newest gadget. the industry is conventional and conservative. New fancy usually means it won't be around next week.

[David]

+100 on check with local supplier.

Do you have 3 phase in you building?

Keep in mind that the mill/lathe is probably half the real cost when you start buying all the other stuff you need like collets, vices, rotary tables, end mills, etc.

[cashflyer]

Yes, we have 3-phase.

[ODDJOB UNO]

Originally Posted by cashflyer

Probably 90% of the metal that we cut at the old shop was aluminum.
We used mostly Kennemetal tooling. Some carbide insert tools, some steel tools.
There is a local dealer for Cubic and Chevalier, which is why we had those brands.

As Tim warns, I worry about getting worn out junk if I buy used. Some of those big brands have not been made in over 20 years, and some of the machines on the internet are much older than that. If a machine is already on a skid, ready to ship, it is hard to tell if it is worn out or not.

This is why I was considering the Import path - but OJU makes a very good point about getting parts. Even on the Cubic brand lathe it may be a problem, as I no longer see manual lathes on their website. I can't imagine what it would take to get parts for a Taiwanese made Enco machine.

Perhaps I will ask my friend, who owns a machine shop, to help me source some QUALITY used American machines.

alum is butter. now if its a miss-kill(missile-pick which flavor or kilo-ton warhead) fuel cell its very BIG butter to cut.

YOU have to know what in the hell size parts yer gonna do?????????????/


itty bitty teensy weensie parts?


big fat parts?

oil coolant? how are you gonna dispose legally?

water soluable?


as mentioned electrical power


is machine area FLAT? holy ned we didnt think of that? maybe lazer off machine area and correct sloppy concrete etc.


you need to be walked thru this cause it can BURN YOU ROYALLY when the damn machines DONT WORK AND PARTS AINT BEING MADE! talk with your machine shop friend. do diagram of area setup. will big long parts fit? will there be a safe workable useable workspace or crammed into a corner with the rats?


do you have material? where are you gonna store it?


who the hells gonna run it?


lots of DUCKS that YOU need to be QUACKING all in a ROW!

[BLEW911]

Simple.....lightly used or reconditioned Hardinge toolroom lathe and a lightly used or reconditioned Bridgeport mill. Both with digital readouts. These are the BEST manual machines made,lots of times come with tooling and within your budget if you shop wisely.

[cashflyer]

who the hells gonna run it?
Me! I ran the old shop. I'll run this one. But like I mentioned, I was not there for the purchase of the equipment back then and am trying to make sure I make the best source choice since this time it's my responsibility.

Machine size was not so much the issue of my question as was the source. I would be very happy with a pair of machines similar to what we had at the old shop. They met our needs well.

We will use water soluble coolant, and we can have it disposed of by the same company that picks up our other waste chemicals.

We rarely stored much metal as our needs are low and the supplier is only 1/2 mile away. (We are in an industrial park.)

The floor is not "laser level" but it is flat enough that the machines will need minimum shimming or leg adjustment.

[jim72911t]

If your estimated budget is anywhere near your estimate, you should have no problem finding quality used equipment. Keep an eye out for auctions, especially CNC shops that are going out of business. Most of these will have a mill and a lathe that are used (infrequently) for tooling and one-offs, and should be in good condition and well maintained. An added bonus is that most of these will be sold with tooling, which can take years and many dollars to collect.

Since you ran your old shop and seem to be familiar with the machines themselves, I won't get into name brands or what to look for with regards to condition. FWIW, I'd take a well maintained 40 year old Monarch or Hardinge lathe and similar age and condition Bridgeport or clone over brand new Chinese junk any day.

Good luck. Not paying for the stuff yourself is the best part.

[john70t]

Are there any technical standards to ask for when purchasing the equipment remotely?
i.e.: amperage draw when running unloaded(bearings), lateral/vertical play, guarentee flat working surface, handle gear play, etc..?

Would these be normal questions or just annoy the seller?