Gotta love it. You start your relationship with your new employer by lying to him. I can't see you going far in that company.

Have to agree with the above. I've never stayed at any one place for more than about three years and it has paid off handsomely each time I jumped ship.

It's like being in high school dating again - have fun while you're involved and try to get the most out of it, but realize that the other party is doing the same and ultimately one of you is going to dump the other - so there's always a subtle pressure to make sure you're the dumpER, not the dumpEE.

I've already decided that my current job is my last. I will stay until I either quit or they dump me at which point I will work for myself. I'm now at a point where I can and where (aside from the crappy economy) I really don't need anyone else anymore. The economic climate is the only thing keeping me from going "all in" on my own practice right now - it's just too risky. Otherwise I'd have done it a year and a half ago when my last job went kaboom.

Yes it sucks. It's even harder when one considers how much harder it gets as one ages. I also think there are a lot of unintended consequences of this trend (companies treating employees like chattel and employees jumping ship all the time because they're constantly expecting to be schit-canned at the drop of a hat). People are more transient, neighborhood and community bonds are virtually non-existent. Everyone's a carpetbagger. It discourages homeownership (especially if homes are losing value or only breaking even or one can rent for the same or less, all of which are the case right now). It is more disruptive to family life. Etc. etc. etc. This is a serious problem and is causing a lot of problems that we don't want to talk about as a society.

Yes, and I do respect him for his honesty. I would need to be promoted three times to meet the base requirements for my current position. He noted that a fourth promotion would likely be justified based on my performance. These promotions would represent double my current salary. Based on his experience with my company, his reply was "not gonna happen".

The reply was also based on his own experience, as he has been at multiple companies throughout his career.

No, you didn't. You obviously failed to comprehend what I was trying to express as well as the situation. This was in no way a shakedown for a higher salary. Our managers are not allowed to make salary adjustments or promotions, that falls to our HR department. My boss has told me on multiple occasions that if he had authority over pay/promotion he wouldn't hesitate to make things right.

You hiring? :D

Why worry about the enemy outside, when this nation is quickly mastering destruction from within?

I am not throwing blame on those here. It's a dog-eat-dog environment. Thank goodness I'm self-employed.

We are the new Roman Empire.

Seriously. The parallels are creepy.

Don't burn Bridges
 

I worked for my current employer for 7 years, and when a very good opportunity came my way, I gave said employer the option to match it. They declined and so I left. The new position was fun, but long hours and less than a year in I was downsized. Called old employer, and was brought back on. Got a promotion, and a 28% raise to come back. It has been a rumor in the company for years that that was the way to get ahead, and I'm proof. I'm just glad I left on good terms, so I could come back on good terms.

In the US we have extraordinary labor flexibility. Or maybe it should be called employer flexibility. US companies can lay off one employee or 1000 employees at the drop of a hat and at very little cost, with minimal legal restrictions and usually no union restrictions, and no cost to reputation. Employees can quit on a moment's notice and switch jobs frequently, also at little cost to reputation or otherwise, and

Economists and conservatives usually consider this a good thing. Managements certainly do. And, in good economic times, I think many employees like it too - in bad economic times, opinions change.

Most of Europe is different, as is Japan. China, India, etc are more like us.

The two biggest raises I've received in my career (16 years out of college) were when I:

1. Got another job lined up and threatened to quit
2. Actually quit and took another job

Aside from that, it's been anywhere from 0% to 4% cost of living increases, which as someone pointed out earlier, barely keep you up with inflation.

So I agree if you want to get ahead you may need to jump ship. Now there's a whole school of thought out there (and some books written) on how to negotiate a raise with your current employer. Never put much energy into that, but it might be worth a try.

M

I've moved jobs three times. Each time, the move paid off. I stayed in two jobs for long times (>5 yrs). One time, it paid off; the other time, I should have left long before I did.

Suffice to say, the employer is not going to take it upon themselves to hand out a big raise to you unless you take action to make it happen, one way or another.

Also, you as the employee, need to know the market for your skilz. Market timing is everything. Now is not necessarily a good time to ask for more money, but there will come a time when the economy improves, and that will be the time to get what you want.

I think when things are good you have to have the balls to make a move, push for a raise, whatever. 2009 was the year to lay low and not stick your head up.

Rather depressing, isn't it? Coming out of college I always had the rather naive notion that if I excelled at my job, I would be rewarded. Is this concept a victim of our modern society, or do such places still exist?

Thought about this a bit more. Some observations for whipped -

- Some industries are more entrepreneurial than others, and more likely to reward excellence. I think of commercial aerospace as being among the least entrepreneurial industries.

- Along the same lines, rewards of all kinds will be more common in industries that are growing and very profitable. THe opposite in stagnant or money-losing industries. You've talked before about how poorly your industry is doing, doesn't it make sense that they'd be very stingy with raises/promotions?

- Some kinds of excellence are easy to reward because they lead directly to revenue. Other kinds of excellence don't, essentially, self-fund their own rewards. Be a top salesperson, or a top QC tester, guess who gets rewarded more.

- Jobs that are considered more fungible are less likely to get rewarded.

So, you're in a not-very-entrepreneurial industry, that is in a tough financial state and hasn't grown for decades, and as a relatively young engineer you may be viewed as fungible.

I'm not trying to be dicky, but just being objective.

You can be very good a low-paying job that requires almost no skills and you won't make much money doing it. I think those are called dead-end jobs. You might want to change your way of thinking to "If I provide value for my employer that he knows he cannot easily replace, I will earn at least what the market will bear. And if not, I can go wherever my skills are more valued." That of course, has nothing to do with a living wage, tenure, job security or other things to which a lot of Americans think they have a birthright. In my line of work we say, "Your review is your W2." If I ever asked for a raise, my boss would say, "Sure. Sell more and you'll earn more."

Rick, not to be arrogant, but I am an aerospace project manager running the top project in our company. We have the most budget and the highest priority. My problems aren't necessarily directly related to my job, more so HR. As I noted earlier, our engineering leadership up to and including VP level has no direct control over pay and promotion. They are able to make suggestions, but the ultimate authority lies with HR. Interesting way to do business......

Matt, I have zero doubt that you're well skilled, hard working (despite your post count here;)) and have a job of considerable responsibility. However, that and the fact that you are not as well paid as you think you should be should remind you of how things really work - resume, job title, hours worked, office budget are all things by which we measure the rat race. Your true value as an employee lies only in your ability to find a better paying job or to convince your current employer that you're worth more pay. My boss once offered me a title of "bureau manager," saying it would help in my professional development, but that I'd probably earn less. I laughed and said, "Why the hell would I want that? You could make my title 'janitor' and I wouldn't care. I just want to earn more money and know that my income will never be capped."

I hope you weren't building those wing boxes, or else I might argue you were overpaid... lol ;) ;)

Blackberry + pointless meetings = quality time on Pelican.:D. Oh, to imagine life without meetings.....

Time for a Bukowski quote...my favorite drunken writer
 

From Factotum, 1975:

"It was true that I didn't have much ambition, but there ought to be a place for people without ambition, I mean a better place than the one usually reserved. How in the hell could a man enjoy being awakened at 6:30 a.m. by an alarm clock, leap out of bed, dress, force-feed, $h!t, pi$$, brush teeth and hair, and fight traffic to get to a place where essentially you made lots of money for somebody else and were asked to be grateful for the opportunity to do so?"