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Is Toyota Hiding Crash Data?

Quote:

Is Toyota Hiding Crash Data?
By Curt Anderson and Danny Robbins, Associated Press Writers
Manufacturing.Net - March 05, 2010

SOUTHLAKE, Texas (AP) -- Toyota has for years blocked access to data stored in devices similar to airline "black boxes" that could explain crashes blamed on sudden unintended acceleration, according to an Associated Press review of lawsuits nationwide and interviews with auto crash experts.

The AP investigation found that Toyota has been inconsistent -- and sometimes even contradictory -- in revealing exactly what the devices record and don't record, including critical data about whether the brake or accelerator pedals were depressed at the time of a crash.

By contrast, most other automakers routinely allow much more open access to information from their event data recorders, commonly known as EDRs.

AP also found that Toyota:

-- Has frequently refused to provide key information sought by crash victims and survivors.

-- Uses proprietary software in its EDRs. Until this week, there was only a single laptop in the U.S. containing the software needed to read the data following a crash.

-- In some lawsuits, when pressed to provide recorder information Toyota either settled or provided printouts with the key columns blank.

Toyota's "black box" information is emerging as a critical legal issue amid the recall of 8 million vehicles by the world's largest automaker. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said this week that 52 people have died in crashes linked to accelerator problems, triggering an avalanche of lawsuits.

When Toyota was asked by the AP to explain what exactly its recorders do collect, a company statement said Thursday that the devices record data from five seconds before until two seconds after an air bag is deployed in a crash.

The statement said information is captured about vehicle speed, the accelerator's angle, gear shift position, whether the seat belt was used and the angle of the driver's seat.

There was no initial mention of brakes -- a key point in the sudden acceleration problem. When AP went back to Toyota to ask specifically about brake information, Toyota responded that its EDRs do, in fact, record "data on the brake's position and the antilock brake system."

But that does not square with information obtained by attorneys in a deadly crash last year in Southlake, Texas, and in a 2004 accident in Indiana that killed an elderly woman.

In the Texas crash, where four people died when their 2008 Avalon ripped through a fence, hit a tree and flipped into an icy pond, an EDR readout obtained by police listed as "off" any information on acceleration or braking.

In the 2004 crash in Evansville, Ind., that killed 77-year-old Juanita Grossman, attorneys for her family say a Toyota technician traveled from the company's U.S. headquarters in Torrance, Calif., to examine her 2003 Camry.

Before she died, the 5-foot-2, 125-pound woman told relatives she was practically standing with both feet on the brake pedal but could not stop the car from slamming into a building. Records confirm that emergency personnel found Grossman with both feet on the brake pedal.

A Toyota representative told the family's attorneys there was "no sensor that would have preserved information regarding the accelerator and brake positions at the time of impact," according to a summary of the case provided by Safety Research & Strategies Inc., a Rehoboth, Mass.-based company that does vehicle safety research for attorneys, engineers, government and others.

One attorney in the Texas case contends in court documents that Toyota may have deliberately stopped allowing its EDRs to collect critical information so the Japanese automaker would not be forced to reveal it in court cases.

"This goes directly to defendants' notice of the problem and willingness to cover up the problem," said E. Todd Tracy, who had been suing automakers for 20 years.

Randy Roberts, an attorney for the driver in that case, said he was surprised at how little information the Avalon's EDR contained.

"When I found out the Toyota black box was so uninformative, I was shocked," Roberts said.

Toyota refused comment Thursday on Tracy's allegations because it is an ongoing legal matter, but said the company does share EDR information with government regulators.

"Because the EDR system is an experimental device and is neither intended, nor reliable, for accident reconstruction, Toyota's policy is to download data only at the direction of law enforcement, NHTSA or a court order," the Toyota statement said.

Last week, Toyota acknowledged it has only a single laptop available in the U.S. to download its data recorder information because it is still a prototype, despite being in use since 2001 in Toyota vehicles. Three other laptops capable of reading the devices were delivered this week to NHTSA for training on their use, Toyota said, and 150 more will be brought to the U.S. for commercial use by the end of April.

By contrast, acceptance and distribution of data recorder technology by other automakers is commonplace.

General Motors, for example, has licensed the auto parts maker Bosch to produce a device capable of downloading EDR data directly to a laptop computer, either from the scene of an accident or later. The device is available to law enforcement agencies or any other third party, spokesman Alan Adler said.

Spokesmen from Ford and Chrysler said their recorder data is just as accessible. "We put what you would call 'open systems' in our vehicles, which are readable by law enforcement or anyone who has a need to read that data," Chrysler spokesman Mike Palese said.

Nissan also makes its EDR data readily available to third parties using a device called Consult, spokesman Colin Price said. The program allows access to a host of vehicle data, from diagnosing the cause of a check-engine light to downloading EDR data after a crash, he said.

However, Honda does not allow open access to its EDR data. Spokesman Ed Miller said the data is only readable by Honda and is made available only by court order.

In many cases, attorneys and crash experts say EDR data could help explain what happened in the moments before a crash by detailing the positions of the gas and brake pedals as well as the engine's RPM.

"Had Toyota gotten on the stick and made this stuff available early on, I think they'd be in a better position than they are now," said W.R. "Rusty" Haight, owner of a San Diego-based collision investigation company.

In congressional hearings on the recalls last week, U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said Toyota's EDR data cannot be read by a commercially available tool used readily by other automakers. "Toyota has a proprietary EDR, which is the system that only they can read," LaHood said.

The AP review of lawsuits around the country found many in which Toyota was accused of refusing to reveal EDR and other data, and not just in sudden acceleration cases.

In Kentucky, to cite one example, a recent lawsuit filed by Dari Martin over a wreck involving a 2007 Prius sought information from Toyota to bolster his claim that the car's seatbelt was defective. Toyota refused, contending there was no reliable way to validate the EDR data and that an engineer would have to travel from New Jersey or California at a cost of some $5,000 to retrieve it.

"There is simply no justifiable reason for Toyota not to disclose this information," Martin's lawyers said in a court filing.

Lawsuits in California and Colorado have accused Toyota of systemically withholding key documents and information in a wide variety of accident cases, but no judge or jury has found against the car company on those allegations.

Some crash experts say Toyota shouldn't bear too much criticism for failing to capture large amounts or specific kinds of data, because EDR systems were initially built for air bag deployment and not necessarily to reconstruct wrecks. They also vary widely from vehicle model to model, said Haight, the San Diego collision expert.

"That doesn't mean I'm hiding something or preventing you from getting something," Haight said. "It simply means that, in the development of a car, other considerations took priority -- nothing more."

Anderson reported from Miami. AP Business Writer Dan Strumpf in New York, AP writer Greg Bluestein in Atlanta and AP Researcher Barbara Sambriski in New York contributed to this report.

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You're not letting the liberal media do your thinking for you, are you?

Here's the real deal:
Toyota has a proprietary computer programming system running their cars that they spent a whole bunch of money on and they don't want their competitors to have it. Those bastages!

Toyota has spend many large fortunes trying to duplicate the reported unintended acceleration.
Since it has only been reported in an extremely small percentage of Toyota cars on the road (.000025%), and even in them it only reportedly happens rarely, Toyota has not been able to reproduce the results so they haven't been able to determine what is wrong. Millions and million of testing miles, hundreds or thousands of different type of tests, the only negative results they observed were interference with a floor mat and a couple of sticking throttle pedals when they put their cars in a freezer.
They addressed those potential problems and will address any other problems that are discovered. DUH!
We have people on this board who pretend to be experts when it comes to bashing Toyota, but they can't even fix their own CIS system. I'd like to see them find and solve something that apparently happens randomly as rarely as once in every 40 billion miles or so.

oh, you didn't realize that Toyota sold almost 9 million vehicles in 2008? Take a look around.
They sell over 2 million hybrids a year! There are more than 100 million vehicles on the road in the world manufactured by Toyota or one of their subsidiaries.

Of course, being rational and looking at the facts isn't as much fun as knee-jerk reactions and jumping on the bandwagon, and it takes a whole lot more brain power.
Seems most folks don't want to bother with the effort to be reasonable or rational when it comes to this toyota recall BS.

Add to that a whole bunch of ambulance chasing low-lifes thinking this toyota PR mess will be their personal winning lottery ticket, Toyota has plenty of reasons to be careful with their information.

Initially I felt Toyota did not handle the recalls as well as they could have, but now I think it's really turning into a witch hunt. This morning Fox News(not my fault, it was on at the gym) had a reporter as a guest who feels his car still experiences unintended acceleration after being repaired with the recall. He told a story about driving during the recent snow storm and while braking, he hit a patch of ice and felt the car accelerate.

He very well could have. It may have been the tcs trying to straighten the car out. I knew one guy that said if it wasn't for the tcs on his sequoia he would have been upside down in the ditch.

Anytime you're braking and hit an area with severely less grip, you have the sensation of accelerating.

Toyota has been covering this up for years.

Clearly.

sammy makes some valid points above, but here is the real question:

"Toyota may have deliberately stopped allowing its EDRs to collect critical information so the Japanese automaker would not be forced to reveal it in court cases."

who knows what the answer really is?

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyg2 (Post 5220969)

Sammy, this could be the first and last time I find myself in complete agreement with one of your posts.

So my hat's off.

I was ignoring all this as a 'witch hunt' until the black box information came up...

That go me thinking. Now a black box essentially records what is going on just prior to the crash (braking, throttle position, etc). So it would seem that using the black box information would exonerate toyota of all wrong doing, proving that the acceleration is completely human caused and not at all the fault of the manufacturer. (remember Audi and the unintended acceleration?).

Well then Toyota has an air tight alibi. So provide the black box information. Oh wait, NO? You don't want to provide it? Hmmm....

Now clearly understand, I believe maybe 15% of what our media has to say. Their credibility is very poor. But this refusal to share the black box information seems very odd to me.

Then again, I can't figure out why the brakes don't work or why the emergency brake does not work. Many mysteries here for me.

angela

Agree with Angela. Proprietary or not, it seems odd that black box info could easily exonerate Toyota and they don't share this? They're willing to potentially lose customers, shut down production lines, have new car sales of their most popular models blocked, lose corporate face...and they still don't show the data? Odd.

At the same time, how many hundreds of millions of miles have suspect Toyotas piled up and how many incidents like this have happened? I have no concrete number, but seems like just a handful. That's an exceedingly low incident rate. And yet, L.A. Times had an article yesterday or the day before which claimed that since the repairs have been instituted these past two weeks **60** more reports of unintended acceleration have surfaced in repaired cars? Something's fishy--and not just with Toyota.

Its not a handful. Its thousands and thousands of instances that have resulted in 32 deaths.

I hope toyota gets sued into oblivion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by m21sniper (Post 5223498)

Its not a handful. Its thousands and thousands of instances that have resulted in 32 deaths.

I hope toyota gets sued into oblivion.

Really... because I the only time I have heard numbers that high.... where when you were posting...

I don’t understand.... if your car is accelerating why wouldn’t you just put it in neutral or shut off the ignition. Is there something that prevents this on newer Toyotas?

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Originally Posted by slakjaw (Post 5223920)

I don’t understand.... if your car is accelerating why wouldn’t you just put it in neutral or shut off the ignition. Is there something that prevents this on newer Toyotas?

Apparently, at least in the infamous CHP case (in San Diego?), the driver claimed he had tried putting the shifter into neutral without any luck. The car had a push-button start/stop, so no key to turn off. The "starter" button has to be pushed for 3 continuous seconds to turn off the motor. Perhaps, in a moment of panic, the driver (of this rental car, BTW) didn't have the presence of mind to push that button for three long seconds.

Thats why all the world should still drive 5spds..... I guarantee I could the corolla I drive into neutral....

Quote:

Originally Posted by porsche4life (Post 5223668)

Really... because I the only time I have heard numbers that high.... where when you were posting...

Why dont you actually research it, like i have?

As many of 10% of one particular lexus model has had the problem. 10%...one in ten

That's a lot of cars.

Several quick google searches don't give me hard and fast numbers.... but since you have so many hours to sit around and pull facts out of your ass why don't you provide me some links.... Not from faux news.... that show REAL data about what is going on....

Or don't waste your time... I (like many here) know you just enjoying pulling facts out of your ass to stroke your own ego. It has gotten to the point where your opinion on most subjects is disregarded by many of us. I really didn't want to start another flame war... but go ahead... jump on me and tell me I am wrong.... Provide no real data to back it up and then tell us all again how superior your 928 is. In the meantime I have to go to class and work. I will drive the Corolla just like I always do, and I will get there just like I always do....

The hood don't like your dismissive attitude.

Quote:

Originally Posted by porsche4life (Post 5224017)

I've posted article after article.

I cannot make a young boy sit there and actually read them before he shoots his mouth off like a twit.