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My understanding is that as soon as the shot leaves the barrel the pattern starts to immediately expand at an incremental rate. So it seems obvious to me that the shorter the barrel, the greater the spread at, say, 10 feet.

I DO agree that shotgun patterns are of a size at close range that aiming is still entirely required. At 7yds the pattern is only about the size of a grapefruit from a typical 12ga 18" bbl gun.

I do agree with RPK about that. I also agree that red dot/HUD/laser would all be very useful sighting aids in close-medium range combat, and especially for longer range shots.

I do not have enough skeet/trap shooting to offer an opinion, but the burris fastfire setup seems like it might work pretty awesome on a shotgun.
Old 03-24-2010, 07:31 PM
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Snipe what frenchy is saying, correctly, is that you shouldn't be looking at anything on the gun itself (my contention is that even the very good use peripheral clues and 'cheat') and as such a sighting system that elaborate (does it stick up? would this be in the way?) is just costing you valuable time in getting focused on the target itself.

when you combine a hard focus on the target itself with very good muscle memory (a correctly fit stock being paramount in acheiving this) you become a bird killing machine! or clay killing machine. but birds taste a LOT better. IMO.

shotgunning for birds/clays is SO different from rifle/people shooting. you really don't have time to set up a sight picture that elaborate when a tiny little dove just surprised you by jumping out of the sunflowers 20yds off to your right.

i remember a History Channel show about WWII anti aircraft gunning (can't remember specific series/episode) and the training they went through. the military quickly found that country boys with bird hunting experience were a very natural fit for the job as they already understood the concept of shooting AHEAD of the targe and not AT it. it really is neat stuff. in clays shooting you kinda get to cheat because you can plan your shot watching the guy in front of you. but in bird hunting, particularly dove, you don't get this luxury and the wheat is definitely separated from the chaff. found this myself when i started hunting with a sporting clays buddy. i could reliably score slightly better than him on any course but when we got in the field...well he had a lot more cleaning to do at the end of the day.
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Last edited by berettafan; 03-24-2010 at 07:46 PM..
Old 03-24-2010, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by berettafan View Post

Frenchy you are not being honest here. The BEST shooters in the world can pick up a round bbl, beadless shotgun and hit anything with just about any load. But for the overwhelming majority of shooters (even very, very good ones), be they bird or clay, ribs and beads serve as a peripheral clue. I never said one should look AT the rib when sighting and YOU KNOW i didn't mean that.

Have no idea what you mean by saying choke selection is a gimmick. I suppose double triggers are as well in your book. .
You are taking my comments like personal attacks. Put your ego aside and read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

"Many fittings on shotguns (sight ribs, length of barrel (unless we are speaking of black powder), choke selection, etc. are fictions of the gun industry looking for sales features. "

As an example, choke selection will not increase your score by more than a few percentage points (and that with a very good shooter), but are touted and sold as a must have. That is BS.

And I never said, that you said one should look at the rib. Again you are taking personal umbrage over something that you see, not what I posted. You must stop placing your own emotionally charged interpetation on my simple english sentences.

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Originally Posted by berettafan View Post
I am very pleased to hear you have spent time with Holland & Holland. Have visited their showroom in NYC and thought their guns were just lovely. It seems they have done a good job teaching you the basics of shotgun snobbery (beads are for pussies, ribs are a joke, all you need is a single trigger full/full 24" sxs for any/all shooting). But i have to say that from my limited experience in NSCA some years back the best shooters in the game were pretty darned practiced at changing chokes in guns w/ vent ribs. Didn't see too many hoity toity guns at the time save for the occasional Kreighoff. In fact at the time the best in the business were shooting $800 Beretta 390's w/ all manner of 'gimmicks' like vent ribs, palm swells, white beads (some even had red/orange beads!), heavy weight extended magazine caps, etc etc.
I am very pleased to hear you have spent time with Holland & Holland. Having visited their showroom in NYC and that you thought their guns were just lovely. It seems they have done a good job teaching you the basics of shotgun reverse-snobbery . I never stated that beads are for pussies, ribs are a joke, all you need is a single trigger full/full 24" sxs for any/all shooting and neither did H&H. Lets not make things up, OK?I have worked for H&H, Purdy, Boss, Rigby, Fabri and several others, so I have a little experience on this subject.

You have seen the competative game masters, who, like many competitors in other fields are always search for that little advantage to beat the next guy. Many of those things are just like "lucky charms" and have little to do with reality. Just like athleats with their "lucky" shirt, shoes, gloves, hat; shotgunners have their favorite choke, rib and load. But I have found no verifiable evidence that any of these things offer more than a psycological boost.

European trap and skeet are run at far faster speeds and greater angles than standard American trap and skeet, the standard Sporting Clay course in the UK is changed for every shooter, you cannot watch how the previous clays flew. Each shot is unique to the individual. I have seen and shot with some the world's best. I know one top competitor whose barrels were splitting, but because he was winning he would not allow them to be touched. Reality or "lucky charm"?

I simple stated that longer barrels did smooth many swings out, but that is not nessasary. Which they are not. It is a crutch used by many to cover bad form and technique. Not a requirement.

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Originally Posted by berettafan View Post
it comes down to muscle memory and ANYTHING that aids in getting the gun to the same spot every single time you mount it is a positive feature. stock fit is a major tool (certainly the most important) but not the ONLY tool.
I agree completely with this. As I stated in my post, proper gun fit and technique will let almost anyone acheive 75-80% hits.
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Old 03-24-2010, 07:54 PM
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you are playing games with words now frenchy. you won't say the pattern isn't larger from the shorter bbl (because you KNOW it must be, however minutely so) so you simply say i won't 'see' it. you also conveniently presume the use of deforming lead (or similar) shot and not steel which, in the good ol' US of A is mandatory for migratory birds.

indeed i've spent time drawing 30" circles and counting pellet holes (from my own loads with carefully weighed charges) and very often the answer wasn't apparent with just a glance at the pattern.

it's not that i think you are WRONG frenchy...in any of this really....but that you are playing games with it. is this a common tactic for you?

you make statements that would only REALLY apply to a very small % of shooters. yet you don't qualify your statements.
The games you see here are the games you are creating in your head. I am careful of how I phrase things and with word choice.

I stated "I'm sorry to say that if you build test barrels that are identical in every respect you will definitely not be able to see the differences between a 10" , 18" or 28" barrel with modern loads."

Let me elaborate for you. You will not be able to measure a difference when you take an average of 10 shots from each barrel length, if the test barrels match exactly in all parameters (except length) and each shot from all the barrels is the exact identical load.

If you think it works differently please post the evidence.
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by berettafan View Post
Snipe what frenchy is saying, correctly, is that you shouldn't be looking at anything on the gun itself (my contention is that even the very good use peripheral clues and 'cheat') and as such a sighting system that elaborate (does it stick up? would this be in the way?) is just costing you valuable time in getting focused on the target itself.
Well i think you'd want 2 eye open occulated shooting where your eyes are superimposing your bead, or red dot, or whatever on the target. (actually in front of the target for shotspooning or any moving target)

If you're doing it right- with a rifle or handgun- you don't even look at the gun at all, just the target as you bring the weapon up from low ready (this is for optics, not iron sights. On iron sights you're supposed to focus on the front sight and let your target and rear sights blur). With both eyes open the gun will be blurred out and superimpose itself, and the reticle/bead/dot right in your plane of vision.

So it's true you don't look at the gun in that sense....if skeet/wing shooting is the same, that is.

Last edited by m21sniper; 03-24-2010 at 08:07 PM..
Old 03-24-2010, 08:04 PM
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My understanding is that as soon as the shot leaves the barrel the pattern starts to immediately expand at an incremental rate. So it seems obvious to me that the shorter the barrel, the greater the spread at, say, 10 feet.

I DO agree that shotgun patterns are of a size at close range that aiming is still entirely required. At 7yds the pattern is only about the size of a grapefruit from a typical 12ga 18" bbl gun.

I do agree with RPK about that. I also agree that red dot/HUD/laser would all be very useful sighting aids in close-medium range combat, and especially for longer range shots.

I do not have enough skeet/trap shooting to offer an opinion, but the burris fastfire setup seems like it might work pretty awesome on a shotgun.
As you noted we are speaking of two completely different use scenarios in this thread. Tactical shotgun work is essentially the same as tactical rifle or pistol work. So any device that allows more accurate aiming or pointing in less than idea circumstances is a benefit. While a HUD or red-dot type of device will allow improved shoulder mounted use. A laser will allow for off shoulder accuracy as well as shouldered improvement which is allows more flexibility in the tactical use situations.
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:08 PM
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Originally Posted by RPKESQ View Post
shotgunners have their favorite choke, rib and load. But I have found no verifiable evidence that any of these things offer more than a psycological boost.
why would you not take the mere presence of these things on a champion shooters gun as evidence? i don't believe there were any real contingency $$'s available for having a tru-glo sight or briley extended choke in a winning gun at the time.

i found a favorite factory load myself (fiocchi 'crusher') which was not the load du jour (that's french for popular ****) and i can't imagine how i'd get a psych. boost by using something that had no real support from other shooters (certainly not the good ones).
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Well i had #6 adjusted perfectly but then just before i tightened it a butterfly in Zimbabwe farted and now i have to start all over again!
I believe we all make mistakes but I will not validate your poor choices and/or perversions and subsidize the results your actions.
Old 03-24-2010, 08:09 PM
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If you think it works differently please post the evidence.
It seems to me that the pattern begins to open the moment it leaves the muzzle.

So if you measure exactly 10 feet in front of each muzzle, you may be correct- barrel length may not matter. However, if you measure 10 feet from the BREECH, the shorter barrel would have a larger pattern at any range, obviously.

It's beginning to disperse at a closer distance to the user than a longer barrel is.

At closer ranges this could be construed as an advantage IMO.

What a longer barrel definitely gets you is velocity- and velocity gets you range and hitting power, and reduces required lead.

Last edited by m21sniper; 03-24-2010 at 08:13 PM..
Old 03-24-2010, 08:10 PM
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"I'm sorry to say that if you build test barrels that are identical in every respect you will definitely not be able to see the differences between a 10" , 18" or 28" barrel with modern loads. What you gain in longer flight time is less than you gain in greater pellet deformation. Simple ballistic aerodynamics."

I'm having trouble absorbing this. Can we take it to an extreme and make the barrel, I'm thinking about 6" is the shortest one could go and still have a working choke, and not have any trouble at the trap range breaking birds? I'd have to see it done.
I have it that optimum shot velocity comes from a 22" or so barrel, I have no idea what the drop-off would be in a 10" but it would have to be considerable. That loss would have to big impact on terminal ballistics. Unless decreasing pellet deformation is the 'holy grail' of increasing performance. I had thought the plastic shot cup had pretty well taken care of that but perhaps there are gains to be made.
I'll submit I would likely score the lowest on a trap range of any posters on this thread, perhaps have sold more shotguns than most though. Occasionally I use the line "they're all just pieces of pipe" and "I could build a zip-gun that would shoot about as good as anything on the rack".
Jim
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Old 03-25-2010, 03:36 AM
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Ok so if barrel length and chokes are just a gimmick, why do scatter guns throughout history have short barrels and no chokes while goose guns have extra long barrels and extra full chokes? Why do trap guns have 33" + barrels? If barrel length and chokes are meaningless, I guess I should go buy that Fox AE grade I saw that somebody cut off to 20" cuz it doesn't matter ...right? What about 4 bore market guns and punt guns?

By the way the Fox was only $850.00, that would be a hell of a bargain if chokes barrel length don't matter.

Last edited by targa911S; 03-25-2010 at 04:06 AM..
Old 03-25-2010, 04:01 AM
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Frenchy's choke comment has got to be a misprint.

And i understand he's saying shot deformation is greater in a longer bbl therefore pattern opens up more quickly than a shorter bbl....i just have trouble believing it more than offsets the length diff.

I suspect he is just taking theory to the absolute extreme just as if Walter Rohrl were to tell us traction control doesn't...or shouldn't...give you better lap times at Nurburgring. The BEST might be able to do without but MOST will benefit to some degree.
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Well i had #6 adjusted perfectly but then just before i tightened it a butterfly in Zimbabwe farted and now i have to start all over again!
I believe we all make mistakes but I will not validate your poor choices and/or perversions and subsidize the results your actions.
Old 03-25-2010, 04:37 AM
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Aerodynamics. That is the key.

Pellets as used in a shotshell do not behave as a single streamlined (or even partially streamlined) spinning projectile. In a shotgun all dispersion is caused by a single factor. Shot deformation.

Speaking of only modern smokeless powder and modern shot cups we obtain difference shot dispersion (pattern size) by choke (more or less of it). Barrel length has nothing to do with it, or so very little as to be completely insignificant. Especially with modern shot cups which protect the pellets from deformation so well that barrel length is of no concern.

A properly constructed choke will affect shot dispersion. It does so by altering the "stack" length of the pellets in the bore. The greater length this mass of pellets has the tighter the pattern will be. When pellets are stacked up behind each other the air has the most effect on the leading pellets and the trailing pellets are protected to various degrees from the effect of aerodynamic drag. This means the leading pellets "break trail" for the following pellets in a manner of speaking and allow them to fly truer, hence less dispersion.

In a more open choke the pellets are not stacked behind each other as much and therefore the air drag on each one of them is greater.

Since not two pellets are exactly alike, the aerodynamic drag and vectoring due to surface irregularities on each pellet result in an independent flight path when exposed to the air. This is the cause of all shot dispersion. The choke actually only affects the "presentation" of the pellets to the air. The air drag is the actual dispersion causality.

Can you make a full choke gun spread to a wide pattern without altering the choke? Of course, just mangle the pellets more in the load. Can you make a cylinder choke shoot tight patterns? Again, of course, just make the pellets less deformed. It really is pretty simple.

Ask yourself this. In a pistol or rifle on a test bench, does barrel length affect accuracy? Of course not (until you look at increased velocity from slower burning powders at long ranch, aerodynamics again).

So back to my original example. If you built test barrels with exactly the same internal dimensions and used the same type of shot cup, pellet composition and powder, case, etc. over a sample of 10 shots out to 40 yards you would not be able to have a statistical significant variation between various barrel lengths. Since the distance between even a 1" barrel and a 36" barrel is not very much % wise to the shot distance (40 meters), any barrel length effect would be hidden in the random shot dispersion caused by each pellet's unique aerodynamic profile.

If you want to have more dispersion from your tactical shotgun, load it with high drag separators and no shotcup with pre-distorted pellets. But you pay the price once you get beyond 15 meters with a significantly lower hit probability with standard 00 or 000 buckshot pellets loads (pellets per load).

Competitors can often “game” the system by using different chokes at different stations, long or extended chokes are not necessary if the original barrel has a proper bore and choke construction. Modern shotcups have changed the patterning of all sizes of shot over the last 35-40 years. So many shotguns can benefit from bore increases and choke as well as forcing cone alterations. This is really just matching the bore to the more modern loads. A shotgun still works the same as it always did. Many European shotguns still have the short forcing cones and tight bores and short chokes required for the older shotshell construction. This older construction is still in use and in some case favored over the modern high-strength plastic shotcup for two reasons mainly. Paper or cardboard wads are cheaper and more environmentally sound than the plastic shotcups.
Gunsmiths have had a lucrative business altering older and European shotguns to the “new” bore, forcing cone and choke profiles. I say “new” because all of this was known 75- 100 years ago. There has been very little really new in shotguns for a very long time. Try looking at the British Patent Office for firearm patents the period of 1860 to 1930. You will be amazed at what they knew and could do.
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by targa911S View Post
Ok so if barrel length and chokes are just a gimmick, why do scatter guns throughout history have short barrels and no chokes while goose guns have extra long barrels and extra full chokes? Why do trap guns have 33" + barrels? If barrel length and chokes are meaningless, I guess I should go buy that Fox AE grade I saw that somebody cut off to 20" cuz it doesn't matter ...right? What about 4 bore market guns and punt guns?

By the way the Fox was only $850.00, that would be a hell of a bargain if chokes barrel length don't matter.
I did not say they were all a gimmick. I said most understanding of them is based on marketing gimmicks and slogans, not actual real world needs or performance.

Most older shotguns have longer barrels (especially in long range models) due to the requirements of black powder. Modern powders do not need this length for complete combustion and so do not need the long barrels. But the gun public is for the most part quite conservative (especially in days past) and once a attribute is established it is very slow to change.
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:35 AM
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"I'm sorry to say that if you build test barrels that are identical in every respect you will definitely not be able to see the differences between a 10" , 18" or 28" barrel with modern loads. What you gain in longer flight time is less than you gain in greater pellet deformation. Simple ballistic aerodynamics."

I'm having trouble absorbing this. Can we take it to an extreme and make the barrel, I'm thinking about 6" is the shortest one could go and still have a working choke, and not have any trouble at the trap range breaking birds? I'd have to see it done.
You are confusing two different senarios. A test barrel on a test stand. And a human holding and firing a short barrel.

You could make a 6" barrel gun that fit the enduser and aloowed him to hold it normally with safety, and if it was balanced to have the weight between the hands, then yes why would it not work?

Quote:
Originally Posted by on2wheels52 View Post
"I have it that optimum shot velocity comes from a 22" or so barrel, I have no idea what the drop-off would be in a 10" but it would have to be considerable. That loss would have to big impact on terminal ballistics. Unless decreasing pellet deformation is the 'holy grail' of increasing performance. I had thought the plastic shot cup had pretty well taken care of that but perhaps there are gains to be made.
Again you are confusing ballistic performance as to velocity over range with shot dispersion. If you used a load that would burn completely in a 6" barrel length and compared that to an identical load in an identical barrel (except for a longer length) the pattern would be identical. All variables must be the same, except for barrel length.

And what does "increasing performance" mean? Better patterns? Higher velocity?
More terminal energy? Pick what is optimum for a given situation.


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Originally Posted by on2wheels52 View Post
"I'll submit I would likely score the lowest on a trap range of any posters on this thread, perhaps have sold more shotguns than most though. Occasionally I use the line "they're all just pieces of pipe" and "I could build a zip-gun that would shoot about as good as anything on the rack".
Jim
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by targa911S View Post
Ok so if barrel length and chokes are just a gimmick, why do scatter guns throughout history have short barrels and no chokes while goose guns have extra long barrels and extra full chokes? Why do trap guns have 33" + barrels? If barrel length and chokes are meaningless, I guess I should go buy that Fox AE grade I saw that somebody cut off to 20" cuz it doesn't matter ...right? What about 4 bore market guns and punt guns?

By the way the Fox was only $850.00, that would be a hell of a bargain if chokes barrel length don't matter.
Butchered barrels are an entirerly different issue. Although you can do much with them if you understand the dynamics.

In the case of this Fox, you would have to overbore the barrels to establish the request amount of choke, lengthen the forcing cones and match the load and pellet deformity to intended use. You would be surprised as to what you can make the old gun do. It is just not very cost effective to do so.
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Old 03-25-2010, 10:50 AM
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Butchered barrels are an entirerly different issue. Although you can do much with them if you understand the dynamics.

In the case of this Fox, you would have to overbore the barrels to establish the request amount of choke, lengthen the forcing cones and match the load and pellet deformity to intended use. You would be surprised as to what you can make the old gun do. It is just not very cost effective to do so.
Cost would be the deal breaker. It would never be worth what an uncut gun would be worth. You could make it work, but it would have to be for your passion only. I agree.
Old 03-25-2010, 11:20 AM
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