Question for BMW experts:

speeder · speeder's Garage

I think that we've established in other threads that the E36 M3 is a great car with several members owning them and using them for DDs, etc. My question is this: What about the E34 M5? I've always had an extreme soft spot for that model, looks-wise plus they're really uncommon which is a huge deal for me. "Ronin" being one of my all-time favorite movies doesn't help this minor obsession either.

Aren't they basically the same car mechanically as an M3? Same engine/trans or very close? Any particular problems with that body? I seem to remember hearing somewhere along the way that the E34 body/chassis is not the strongest. Any input based on 1st or 2nd hand experience is appreciated.

Something like this:

BMW : M5 : eBay Motors (item 150428681276 end time Apr-05-10 16:32:38 PDT)

aap1966 · aap1966's Garage

I have a regular E24 635 (not the motorsport M635Csi model that used the E34 M5 engine). Anyhow, the guy that looks after my sixer also has a number of M5s and M6s of that vintage on his books. His opinion is that if the engine is looked after (regular servicing, cam chain changes, etc) they will last forever and the cars themselves are great. The crucial thing is get one that's been well serviced "by the book". If the previous owner has taken servicing shortcuts, you're screwed. High potential for a moneypit. Personally, my 635 (Sept 1988 production) has been great, bought it 3 years ago with 220,000 km (136,000 miles). Spent $2500 on electrics (anticipated), and another $2500 when the auto Tx died (not anticipated, but not M5 relevant). Remember the suspension will probably need an overhaul by now too.
My understanding is the engine / Tx is NOT the same as the contempory M3, but I'm open to correction.
The E34 M5s are real sleepers and I would get one tomorrow if I had the $$ and garage space. I admire your taste. Let me know how you go.
Cheers

asphaltgambler · 03-30-2010, 04:36 AM

+1 to all the above......................The E34 M5 is a nice car but obviously a lot larger and heavier than the '3. Hard to find a really good example these days. Most likely because of age you'll find a high mileage unit at the end of it's life or a completely restored one where the guy is trying to get his $$ back.

The market is down overall on anything like this. You may find that sweet ride for a bargain if you have the cash to go.............. good luck !

javadog · 03-30-2010, 05:02 AM

The M3 and M5 were completely different cars. The engines are different as well. The US E36 M3 didn't get the full spec M3 engine, as they cut corners to reduce the cost and put a different cylinder head on our cars. The M5 had an evolution of the engine that was in the E28 M5. It's a great engine.

If you consider one of these, have a PPI done by someone who knows that particular car and engine well. Getting one of these cars up to date on deferred maintenance is a wallet killing deal.

speeder · speeder's Garage

Thanks a lot. One difference that jumped right out with some quick research is that the E34 M5 got ~10mpg city, (according to EPA estimate at the time), while an E36 M3 gets almost double that according to owners' reports. That's a deal-killer for me in anything approaching a dd.

When you add fuel costs to regular maintenance costs on an aging M-car, it's easy to see why there are not a lot of them on the road being used as actual transportation. That's my litmus test for any vehicle, other than a track toy. How does it work as an actual transportation device?

ALL BMWs are prone to needing all of their suspension bushings replaced as well as other maintenance issues, I'd imagine that the parts are more expensive by leaps and bounds on the M5. It seems as though the E36 M3 is actually a decent everyday car and the availability and cost of parts is not bad, dealer or aftermarket.

Every few years, I want one of those E34 M5s and have to be reminded why no one seems to choose it as a driver. I do love them still...

McLovin · 03-30-2010, 09:19 AM

While it's a very nice car, the US E36 isn't really a "real" M3. It's just a somewhat warmed over regular 3 series - halfway between a normal 3 and a real M. Still a great car, IMO, and in some ways better than a "real" M3 (still has decent power, great looks, etc., but not the ///Money to buy and repair).

The ///M5 is real.

GG Allin · GG Allin's Garage

The E34 M5 I had was a great car. Very fun to drive. I can't say enough about that S38. That thing loved to rev. and had no problem pulling that heavy car around. I sold it because maintaining those things can be a nightmare. The US version of the M3 would have been better named the 332i or 332is. Not a real M car IMHO. M cars have ITB's. The Euro version's S50B32 was smaller than the S38 with more power and a higher rev. limit. I could only imagine how fun those cars are to drive. Too bad they never came hear.

McLovin · 03-30-2010, 09:29 AM

Some Ms are ///Motorsports. Some are ///Marketing.

speeder · speeder's Garage

OK, so USA E36 M3s do not have ITBs which is why they are not *real M-cars* but also why they do not get 10 mpg going 30 mph down the road. Are the brakes/suspension/other parts the same as the euro M3 or is the whole car not M-parts? It sounds like the USA car is actually a better dual-purpose car w/ the emphasis on street duty.

Sorry for needing this tutorial but I've just never gotten deep into these cars. TIA.

javadog · 03-30-2010, 10:58 AM

Most of the parts are the same, although there are differences. Things like the front brake rotors were better quality on the Euro cars, the brake pads were different to reflect the higher speeds in Europe, etc. They got several hot rod versions of the E36 series, we got one, the '95 CSL.

There's a huge difference in the engine performance, though. The Euro 3.2 is pretty wicked in an E36 chassis.

For what it's worth, the Euro cars get more than 10mpg. Mileage is dependent on your right foot.

JR

GG Allin · GG Allin's Garage

The Euro E36 M3 was available with the SMG too, not sure if that's a good thing though.

DanielDudley · 03-30-2010, 01:59 PM

Those M5 engines are expensive to rebuild, and you have to be careful buying an M5 or M6.

I had a built 633CSI with a bored out Metric Mechanics engine, euro gearbox and final drive. Bilstein/Eibach. Really nice car. The bugaboo with that era BMW is the body rot. They are real drivers cars, but I would go with the E36 M3.

I still think of them, and I should have really considered keeping them, and ditching the 928s.

speeder · speeder's Garage

So what was the '95 CSL? What does that stand for? I'm not familiar with it.

Dueller · 03-30-2010, 02:48 PM

Had a euro M6 with dinan treatment and 5 speed. For whatever reson they didn't do the vallve spring upgrade as suggested/mandated for longevity. Thing would bump the rev limiter easily in first 4 gears. well over 300 hp at the wheels. A valve spring let go....cost to rebuild motor was more than the car would be worth when I got it back. Paid 9500 for it in '97. Sold it for 3K with blown motor in 2000. Best 6500 I ever spent on a car.

It was my favorite car ever, ever, ever...EVER.

That is until it handgrenaded.

greglepore · 03-30-2010, 03:51 PM

I've had E28 and E39 M5's. The E28 was a better car hands down. Yes, the later cars are much more luxurious and have more bells and whistles, but the E28 is probably the best handling sedan ever built, and got liveable gas mileage. Yes, they're getting long in the tooth, but if they've not been abused, they're 200k cars no prob.

Later M5's are just too heavy for my taste. You can feel the potential, but the weight drags it down.

javadog · 03-30-2010, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speeder

So what was the '95 CSL? What does that stand for? I'm not familiar with it.

CSL= coupe sport light. They are commonly known as the M3 Lightweight. In 1995, BMW built a small series of E36 M3's that were more or less intended for club racing. They deleted the heavy options (A/C, radio, sunroof, assorted comfort and convenience options) got rid of a lot of sound deadening, added aluminum doors, etc. This dropped the weight a couple hundred pounds or so. They installed engines that were the best ones built on the production line, made some changes to the wheels and suspension and threw some goodies in the trunk. These were etensions for the rear wing, an x-brace to go under the engine and a couple other things. The front bumper had an adjustable splitter. A shorter final drive ratio was fitted. Somewhere between 85 and 122 were made and sold, depending on whose numbers you believe.

JR

ZOO · 03-30-2010, 04:47 PM

The North American E36 M3 is greater than the sum of its parts.

matthew-s · matthew-s's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by greglepore

. . .The E28 was a better car hands down. . .

That has been my suspicion, it's nice to see at least one datapoint from an owner.

I really like the smaller looks of that M5. I'd guess it feels like what passes for a lot of sports cars these days.

Any place in particular where I could learn more about them?

Sorry for highjacking your thread Speeder!

speeder · speeder's Garage

Not highjacking at all if it's a BMW question or issue!

So what is the deal w/ OBD1 cars, IOW '95 M3s? More desirable? Why? TIA.

greglepore · 03-30-2010, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by speeder

Not highjacking at all if it's a BMW question or issue!

So what is the deal w/ OBD1 cars, IOW '95 M3s? More desirable? Why? TIA.

More desirable if you intend to mod it-OBD 2 throws a CEL more readily without software fixes-plus, with OBD one you can usually just cut power to kill memory, but not 2. Really an issue at emissions time. The Motronic is pretty much the same.

Matt- a good M5 board here: The Unofficial BMW M5 Messageboard (m5board.com)