Turkish Grand Prix Spoilers

[legion]

No comments about Vettel's bone-headed move?

[Mothy]

Weber spoke very diplomatically about it after - but I bet the conversation behind the shed after was a somewhat more frank exchange of opinion. Team owner must have been shaking his head - to be leading 1-2 and then do that - why???

[Don Plumley]

That was amazing, wasn't it? And then watching Hamilton and Button dice it up...

[legion]

I think Hamilton and Button would have been just as aggressive, had Red Bull not tempered their enthusiasm.

I also think that Button was told to back off. There was a chance both McLarens would run out of fuel.

[David]

Bone head move on both drivers. Vettel for turning right too soon and Mark for pushing him almost to the grass. It's almost like Lewis and Jensen choreographed their little fight to show red bull how it's done.

[Neilk]

Yeah, surprised that there were no posts about it prior to yours. Pretty dumb move on Vetel's part, although Weber could have moved over a bit for his team mate, but nonetheless stupid move.

It was interesting to see Hamilton and Weber talk about the incident while Button was being interviewed.

[Noah930]

I can't fault Vettel for wanting through, as he was the (slightly) faster car. If Horner doesn't issue some sort of team orders, what is he supposed to expect from two hungry (and statistically even) drivers? And I can't fault Webber for not giving Vettel an inch. But why did Vettel drift over to the right? That was stupid.

In comparison the two McLarens raced each other very hard, but entirely fairly and cleanly. Which is why they didn't crash and the Red Bulls did.

I recall something someone said about Little Al and his sportsmanship years ago--that Little Al would give you just enough room to race him, but no more.

[pwd72s]

Any grid girl pics?

[Neilk]

Any grid girl pics?

Button Sr was by far the hottest one, if you should ask.

He stood in for one of them after she passed out on the grid.

[legion]

Originally Posted by Noah930

I can't fault Vettel for wanting through, as he was the (slightly) faster car. If Horner doesn't issue some sort of team orders, what is he supposed to expect from two hungry (and statistically even) drivers? And I can't fault Webber for not giving Vettel an inch. But why did Vettel drift over to the right? That was stupid.

Exactly, I don't fault him for trying to pass. I do fault him for cutting right WAY too early. Did he just assume Weber got out of his way?

[imcarthur]

Any way you cut it, the Red Bull incident & the Ham & Button tussle certainly livened up what could have been a boring race. Vettel did a big stupid with the turn in, but not with the pass attempt.

Ian

[chapo]

Don't know, Viewed Indy and Charlotte instead.

[tchanson]

Some particularly good commentary IMO, on the incident by Joe Saward.



The real f**king disaster

May 31, 2010 by joesaward

Red Bull Racing may have the fastest car in Formula 1 this year, but the team has made a fundamental mistake. And the fact that the two drivers collided is not the problem. That was unfortunate. The real problem is that one of the drivers – the one leading the World Championship, no less – is no longer sure that he can trust his own team. Someone in the team has to take the blame for that – and it is not Mark Webber. At the time of the crash Webber was in the lead and Vettel’s rash (some might say desperate) manoeuvre seemed to catch him out. Lewis Hamilton, who was following behind in his McLaren was clear that he felt that Vettel was to blame.

“I saw Sebastian go to the inside, where there’s not much room, and there didn’t seem to be any reason for him to try to move to the right,” he said.

Webber was clearly trying to avoid controversy – being loyal to the team – but it was also clear that he was not at all happy. He explained that there was no reason why Vettel should have been able to close up on him.

“I wasn’t too slow, no. Seb had a top speed advantage and it looks like he turned pretty quick when he was alongside and we made contact.”

In a previous post we examined the lap times involved and it was clear that Vettel was suddenly able to speed up in relation to Webber. Team boss Christian Horner has now confirmed that the drivers did have different engine settings – something he initially denied. And “denied” is an important word. He did not say that he thought they were on the same setting. He said that they definitely were. Later he recanted on that. Explaining why Horner and Red Bull representative Helmut Marko attacked Webber after the race is going to be difficult to explain.

It is up to the man overtaking to make the move stick and Vettel failed to do that. Webber did not give him much room but there was no reason why he should have done. Webber kept to his line, he did not move right or left. If the road had been wider then Mark would have lost the place, but in the end Vettel drove into the side of his team-mate, presumably thinking that Webber would get out his way.

The problem now is that everyone in the F1 paddock thinks that the Red Bull camp wants Vettel to be World Champion and the whole business has created the ironic situation of Webber being 15 points ahead. To make matters worse the two McLaren drivers are now between the two Red Bull drivers and so trying to help Vettel will be watched for and could open the way for one of the McLaren men to steal the title – which would not be smart at all.

The big teams have all learned over the years that favouring one driver over another is a very blinkered approach. It worked for Ferrari with Michael Schumacher, but in the overall scheme of things, this means that Michael is not given the respect that perhaps he deserves when he is rated along with the all-time greats as he had many advantages and very little pressure.

The Istanbul incident has done nothing to help the relationship between the two Red Bull drivers, although Webber made it clear that he can see a way to get over it. The real “f**king disaster” to which he referred is not about Vettel, but rather about whether he can trust his team or whether he has to watch out for behind-the-scenes meddling. This uncertainty will weaken the team. One can dismiss this as paranoia, but what was clear in Istanbul was that almost no-one in F1 outside the Red Bull camp thought Webber could be blamed for the incident.

Red Bull has long had the bad habit of messing with its drivers. If the team wants to win the World Championship, this must stop.

Down at McLaren they must be laughing all the way to the bank…






Tim

[peppy]

A really bad time to screw up a pass, but a I don't fault him for trying just hitting Mark.


Is Hamilton dating the ugliest of the Spice Girls? How old is she?

[sammyg2]

[nostatic]

Bottom line - Webber held his line. 100% Vettel's fault. My g/f yelled so loud when we were watching it that the cat sitting on my lap scratched the crap out of me in terror.

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Bottom line - Webber held his line. 100% Vettel's fault. My g/f yelled so loud when we were watching it that the cat sitting on my lap scratched the crap out of me in terror.

Webber was definitely upset after the race, when asked he made no comment:


Before you guys jump to any more conclusions, ponder this:
They had strict instructions to ALWAYS give each other room.
The orders were to NEVER go to the wall with a team mate.

On the surface it might look like vettel was in the wrong but when you take into consideration the above, WEBBER was WRONG! He did not follow the orders.
Vettel expected webber to follow the instructions and give him enough room to make the pass. Webber did not.
See, that explains why webber is on the sheet list at red Bull right now and vettel isn't.
I almost suspect they told vettel to go for the pass expecting webber to mover over and he didn't.

EDIT: i forgot to add for the tin foil hat wearers: it's all ferrari's fault they have FIA in their pocket so Ferrari forced the FIA to make the red bull cars crash

[450knotOffice]

After watching it in replay a few times, I agree.

Reminds me of some other famous team rivalries of the past. Senna/Prost comes to mind.

[sammyg2]

Despite cuddling Sebastian Vettel and pointing the finger at Mark Webber, Red Bull's Helmut Marko insists both drivers are treated exactly the same.

On track for a 1-2 finish in Sunday's Turkish GP, Red Bull's racers committed a cardinal sin when Vettel, trying to take the lead off Webber, collided with his team-mate. The disastrous move put Vettel out of the grand prix and dropped Webber from first to third.

Upon arriving back in the pits, Vettel was greeted with cuddles from those on the Red Bull pit wall while Webber was handed the blame for the incident by Red Bull advisor Marko.

'It was Vettel's line. It was Vettel's corner. Mr Mateschitz is not happy'...

Helmut Marko

"It was Vettel's line," Marko ranted. "It was Vettel's corner. Mr Mateschitz (Red Bull's owner) is not happy."

Having had a bit of time to calm down, Marko later insisted that Red Bull are not favouring Vettel.

"We are handling our team and both drivers in the same way," he said. "Vettel was under such pressure and if such a situation comes up - you have to look after the team. We still could have been 1-2."

But despite that, he still believes Vettel had to attack Webber for the lead - and was in the right.

"It wasn't a situation where we were racing each other. We were under enormous pressure from the McLarens - they were much faster on the straights so we had to gain our advantage in the corners.

"He had to attack otherwise he would have got overtaken by Hamilton - it would have been completely different if the McLarens were 10-seconds behind, but that wasn't the case.

"He was already ahead, at least two metres ahead, and there was a corner to the left side coming, so he had to go for the line. He cannot brake on the dirt because for sure he knows what happens.

"But it was unnecessary the whole situation. We will talk with everybody quite clearly to make it not happen again."

[sammyg2]

As Red Bull’s motorsport consultant, Dr Helmut Marko is the perfect person to ask about the incident between the team’s drivers Sebastian Vettel and Mark Webber during the Turkish Grand Prix. Watching the duo go wheel-to-wheel and then lose an almost guaranteed one-two by ending up colliding was not the ideal end to the Istanbul Park weekend. And Marko and the rest of the team are keen to have a serious word with both drivers to ensure it never happens again…

Q: Helmut, how disappointed do you feel to have let victory slip from your grasp?
Helmut Marko: A sure-fire one-two to be exact! It leaves you speechless.

Q: Do you regret there are no team orders anymore?
HM: Well, we thought that we had two responsible drivers who wouldn’t get into such a situation in the first place.

Q: Red Bull team principal Christian Horner said he didn’t believe it was Vettel’s fault. Is this the official opinion of the team?
HM: Well, in the situation Sebastian was in, he had no other choice than to act the way he did.

Q: How will the team respond?
HM: We will carefully analyse the situation and sit down with all involved to have a serious word about what happened and how to handle situations like that in the future.

Q: Will you change something in the future to avoid such an incident happening again?
HM: Well, first of all we always told them that it is a strict no-go to go to the wall with each other. Whatever happens they always have to give room to the other. I hope that all the people involved will think a bit more in the future before acting.

Q: That suggests that one of the two should have given way to the other…
HM: Yes.

Q: And you will discuss with them who that should have been …
HM: Yes.

Q: Is it true that the team gave instructions to Mark Webber’s race engineer to let Sebastian Vettel pass because otherwise Lewis (Hamilton)would be able to overtake?
HM: That is not correct, because that would mean a team order. We informed Mark about the situation and it is for the driver to decide. The fact is that if Sebastian hadn’t passed he would have been overtaken by Hamilton.

Q: Why was Sebastian so much quicker than Mark so suddenly?
HM: I think it was in the tyres.

Q: Have you received a phone call from Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz?
HM: Yes. What does the Queen say? We are not amused? That’s what he said…that he was not amused!

Q: At the next race, if you have a one-two, how will you tell the drivers to behave?
HM: Montreal is a track that is probably not the best for our car, and if it is, we will surely make the right decisions.