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-   -   US refuses foreign help in BP oil crisis.... WTF (http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/546884-us-refuses-foreign-help-bp-oil-crisis-wtf.html)

sammyg2 06-11-2010 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by widgeon13 (Post 5395166)
Perhaps you are correct about the difficulty of avoiding penalty of environmental laws but keep in mind that the legal system can drag things out for entended periods of time. I was surprised to hear just recently that Union Carbide managers were just given jail sentences for the Bhopal disaster and yes, they will be appealing. That occurred in 1984. You might say, poor comparison because of the dramatic difference in lose of life but any life lost is too many. This BP spill will far exceed Bhopal in $$ for clean-up and time for the environment to recover.

I can appreciate that a court case in India is handled much differently than in the US but it also seems that the bigger the case and more publicity it gets the longer the court dealings and negotiated settlements.

The lawyers will make a killing on this for years to come.

Bhopal, 2500 or so human lives lost. Thousands more injured for life and can barely function.
BP gulf oil spill, thousands of birds and turtles dead.
Good perspective.

widgeon13 06-11-2010 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyg2 (Post 5398905)
Says the guy without a clue on the subject.
Do you really think a bunch of bureaucrats know more about stopping a leak a mile deep than the people who do this kind of thing for a living? Seriously?

I think your statement is pretty silly considering this situation has never been encountered before. BP knows nothing more than the bureaucrats and has proven that with one failure after another. They have stated that they are in uncharted waters and the attempted solutions may have worked in shallow waters but never at this depth.

My comparison to Bhopal was directed at the legal response not at the lose of life. My point being that it took 20+ years to prosecute the managers. I made that clear in my post, you must have missed it.

"You might say, poor comparison because of the dramatic difference in lose of life but any life lost is too many. This BP spill will far exceed Bhopal in $$ for clean-up and time for the environment to recover. "

The BP spill will take a long time to rectify and we don't have any idea what the impact will be on wildlife, sea life, seafood or the unfortunate people who are being tasked to do the clean-up. Right now these people are being tasked to work in high heat and high humidity in hazmat gear, they can only work 20 minutes out of every hour. Regardless of what you say they are being exposed to contamination that could very well have long term detrimental effects.

In a year there will be attorneys running TV ads in FL, MS, AL and Louisiana for legal action and damages for environmental exposure over this spill. That's is a given.

You don't seem to see the big picture, you really sound like Tony Hayward. I think you need a PR manager.

The Gaijin 06-11-2010 06:31 AM

What does Sammy do for a living again??

bivenator 06-11-2010 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyl (Post 5398841)
Garp, those dredging ships sound nice but what would they achieve here? One can deposit rocks on the ocean floor, but earlier discussion in this thread was that the oil is at such a pressure that dumping the biggest concrete block on the well isn't going to stop it. The other can suck up water from a depth of 470 feet, but isn't the well 5,000 feet deep? I may be missing your point, but I doubt there is a silver bullet that has been on offer since day one but was rejected for no good reason.

The dredging vessel that Garp is referring to would not be brought in to stop the flow of oil. The ship would have been able to assist in the building of the berms. The oil reaching the sandy beach, while tragic, is a somewhat easy cleanup. The oil that reaches the marshland, the lungs of the Gulf, is where the problems lies. It is these marshland that should be protected by any means available.
There lies the rub. The feds say no berms can be constructed because of the unknown effect on the environment. This is a weak argument in that we already know what the effect of an oil spill in the marshland will be. Catastrophic.
Do something.
Rwebb said that BP had run out of capacity to process the oil/seawater combination. While I don't have all the details about this, it would seem that there should be more ships on hand that can process the oil/seawater. Somebody is not paying attention.

jyl 06-11-2010 06:47 AM

OK, I read in the post "They also offered the help of the two largest suction hoppers in the world which can basically suck-up the oil with tubes of 4 ft diameter down to 450 ft" and was confused.

Jim Richards 06-11-2010 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gaijin (Post 5399083)
What does Sammy do for a living again??

b_tch and moan a lot

Garp 06-11-2010 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyl (Post 5398841)
Garp, those dredging ships sound nice but what would they achieve here? One can deposit rocks on the ocean floor, but earlier discussion in this thread was that the oil is at such a pressure that dumping the biggest concrete block on the well isn't going to stop it. The other can suck up water from a depth of 470 feet, but isn't the well 5,000 feet deep? I may be missing your point, but I doubt there is a silver bullet that has been on offer since day one but was rejected for no good reason.

I'm no expert by a mile, I just quote what I heard the company engineer say on the radio: according to him the ship they own (Simon Stevin described in my first post) could place it's 2000 m long tube over the spill and basically have the oil rise this way. Seaparation of oil, gas, mud and water can be achieved fairly easily.
Again this could be wishful thinking from one company but still I think they should get both the Dutch and Belgian dredgers on board, after all you wan to have the most expertise possible. Some of these companies have been around since the mid 1800's.

Shaun @ Tru6 06-11-2010 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gaijin (Post 5399083)
What does Sammy do for a living again??

Isn't he an anger management counselor?

Garp 06-11-2010 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bivenator (Post 5399098)
The dredging vessel that Garp is referring to would not be brought in to stop the flow of oil. The ship would have been able to assist in the building of the berms. The oil reaching the sandy beach, while tragic, is a somewhat easy cleanup. The oil that reaches the marshland, the lungs of the Gulf, is where the problems lies. It is these marshland that should be protected by any means available.
There lies the rub. The feds say no berms can be constructed because of the unknown effect on the environment. This is a weak argument in that we already know what the effect of an oil spill in the marshland will be. Catastrophic.
Do something.
Rwebb said that BP had run out of capacity to process the oil/seawater combination. While I don't have all the details about this, it would seem that there should be more ships on hand that can process the oil/seawater. Somebody is not paying attention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jyl (Post 5399110)
OK, I read in the post "They also offered the help of the two largest suction hoppers in the world which can basically suck-up the oil with tubes of 4 ft diameter down to 450 ft" and was confused.

This is in fact what I heard the guy say. Too late for the first vessel but the others could indeed suck oil up before it surfaces. Seems futile but it would probably help.
The berms weren't really mentioned but it's not difficult to get that they might be of help for this too.

Quote:

Why Did The U.S. Refuse International Help on The Gulf Oil Spill?
Labels: crude, Green, oilfield
By Dian L. Chu, Economic Forecasts & Opinions

Despite the vow by President Obama to keep the Gulf oil spill a top priority until the damage is cleaned up, 50 days after the BP rig exploded, a definitive date and meaningful solution is yet to be determined for the worst oil spill in the U.S. history.

So, you would think if someone is willing to handle the clean-up with equipment and technology not available in the U.S., and finishes the job in shorter time than the current estimate, the U.S. should jump on the offer.

But it turned out to be quite the opposite. .

U.S. Refused Help on Oil Spill

According to Foreign Policy, thirteen entities had offered the U.S. oil spill assistance within about two weeks of the Horizon rig explosion. They were the governments of Canada, Croatia, France, Germany, Ireland, Mexico, the Netherlands, Norway, Romania, Republic of Korea, Spain, Sweden, the United Kingdom, and the United Nations.

The U.S. response - Thank you, but no thank you, we've got it.

"..While there is no need right now that the U.S. cannot meet, the U.S. Coast Guard is assessing these offers of assistance to see if there will be something which we will need in the near future."

Blame It On The Jones Act?

Separately, Belgian newspaper De Standaard also reported Belgian and Dutch dredgers have technology in-house to fight the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico, but the Jones Act forbids them to work in the U.S.

A Belgian group--DEME-- contends it can clean up the oil in three to four months with specialty vessel and equipment, rather than an estimated nine months if done only by the U.S. The article noted there are no more than 5 or 6 of those ships in the world and the top specialist players are the two Belgian companies- DEME and De Nul - and their Dutch competitors.

The U.S. does not have the similar technology and vessel to accomplish the cleanup task because those ships would cost twice as much to build in the U.S. than in the Far East. The article further criticizes this "great technological delay" is a direct consequence of the Jones Act.

What Is The Jones Act?

The Merchant Marine Act of 1920 is a United States Federal statute that regulates maritime commerce in U.S. waters and between U.S. ports. Section 27, also known as the Jones Act, deals with coastal shipping; and requires that all goods transported by water between U.S. ports be carried in U.S.-flag ships, constructed in the United States, owned by U.S. citizens, and crewed by U.S. citizens and U.S. permanent residents.

The purpose of the law is to support the U.S. merchant marine industry. Critics said that the legislation results in increased costs moving cargoes between U.S. ports, and in essence, is protectionism, Supporters of the Act maintain that the legislation is of strategic economic and wartime interest to the United States. .

European Service Sector - Offshore Subsea Specialist

As discussed in my analysis of the oil service sector, the European companies typically possess the knowhow in offshore and subsea; whereas their North American counterparts excel in onshore drilling and production technologies.

So, it is more than likely that European firms do have the expertise to clean up the spill quicker and more effectively as DEME asserts.

Since the Jones Act means the Belgian ship and personnel cannot work in the Gulf, it does seem the Act has inhibited technology and knowledge exchange & development, and possibly prevented a quicker response to the oil spill.

Jones Waiver Time

On the other hand, waivers of the Jones may be granted by the Administration in cases of national emergencies or in cases of strategic interest. It would appear the U.S. government's initial refusal to foreign help most likely stemmed from a mis-calculation of the scale and deepwater technological barriers for this unprecedented disaster, and/or perhaps ..... pride.

Whatever the rationale, and if De Standarrd's claim that the Jones Act forbids the European companies to help fight the spill is true, it is high time the U.S. government grant the Jones waiver, and let this be an international collaborative effort.

It's always better late than never.

Economic Forecasts & Opinions

RWebb 06-11-2010 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sammyg2 (Post 5398901)
...
They want this spill to be huge.
They want the general public (uninformed morons) to be all upset so their knee-jerk reactions will be to support the administration's huge energy tax.
You are all being played for fools and are willing participants.

...

Yeh, sammy, and USC has a very honest sports program!

guess who the fool is...

RWebb 06-11-2010 11:47 AM

"Rwebb said that BP had run out of capacity to process the oil/seawater combination. While I don't have all the details about this, it would seem that there should be more ships on hand that can process the oil/seawater. Somebody is not paying attention."

I'm sure BP is working as hard as they can. There is only one conduit to the surface.

They plan to use the remnants of the old top kill structure as an alternate conduit, but that takes time.

BP has another drill ship with a bigger separator on the way - will be there soon.

teenerted1 06-11-2010 02:06 PM

YouTube - BP Spills Coffee!

enzo1 06-11-2010 03:38 PM

Hannity said they gave this a go...finally .... is that true?


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