Yes, when you have a parachute on your back, deployed, slowing you down, you are in a controlled environment with your feet pointing towards the ground.

I have belly flopped off a 50' bridge Nothing broken except for a lot of blood vessels and bleeding from an area that you don't want to be bleeding from.

At 250' you have time to react at 20', surprised, you do not.

You're right!

Best,
Tom

I think it depends on the person and the fall.

Some falls might get you or me, but some little 5 foot gymnast would walk away unbruised, whereas from another fall you and i might be ok but a 250lb McDonalds eating fatty would leave a crater mark.

The key is reaction time. If you react quickly and decisively (as in all things) you can get yourself out of a lot of trouble that the indecisive would not be able to avoid.

When landing, you want to let your arms/legs act as shock absorbers and they will often naturally cause a rolling motion in your body that you can simply extend into a full roll as long as you KNOW that you should do so. If you cannot get your hands or legs extended enough to absorb the initial blow (or have the presence of mind to even try to do so), you're probably totally fked. Many untrained individuals would make the mistake of trying to cover their face, which is useless and pointless and counterproductive, whereas the simple act of getting their hands on the ground before their body would provide the rolling motion they'd have needed to fully roll into the fall.

It's like dealing with a fishtail. If you don't know how, even a simple/easily recoverable fishtail can result in a fatal crash.

The simple act of rolling can convert your downward velocity into forward velocity, thereby diminishing all that kinetic energy that you would have otherwise been subjected to upon impact. Once you start to roll, keep your body tightly curled up and let yourself roll right back onto your feet.

Learning to fall is a very important skill IMO, and something that everyone should take the time to do, as it can absolutely save your life.

Jumping out of 2nd floor bedrooms of married chicks when their husbands unexpectedly came home I'll bet:D

That's how the snipester stays in shape
Bump jump and roll

Bill, you are missing the point. If you are planning to jump off a roof, you can plan to bed your knees, roll... When you fall off a roof - unplanned you do not have the ability to control how you land, especially from a height of 20'.

Cats can change in mid air...meaning drop a cat on his back, he can twist & land land on his feet. With humans, it's all done on the take-off. Drop the best olympic diver with his back to the water...with no take off? You'll see an olympic diver hit the water back first.

I agree that your ability to react is diminished in an awkward fall, but it is not eliminated to the point where it's a good idea to not even try and diminish the damage you suffer on landing by trying to orient your body optimally.
Even having the time to throw your arms or legs out to make a limb landing (aka "break your fall") can make a huge difference in the damage you suffer.

I disagree that it is accurate to say you "don't have the ability to control how you land," when you fall in an unplanned fashion. It's simply a matter of reaction time and decisive action, exactly as in an unplanned fishtail. What you have is a diminished ability to break your fall, but it is still entirely possible to try. In fact, it is very possible that you will fall in a way that allows you to land hands or feet first. If you land hands or feet first, it is very possible to initiate a monkey roll if YOU ARE ACTUALLY TRYING TO.

But you can still plan to ALWAYS try and fall in a way that allows for a roll...as opposed to just letting yourself fall on your back or butt.

I think my point here is that KNOWING you should roll if possible is the main thing. Most people just don't know how to fall, which means they simply don't even know they should even be trying to roll at all.


So instead of saying, "I wont be able to roll," Just plan to do so if you CAN. ;)

Not true for a diver any more than it is for a skydiver. You can use aerodynamic forces to reorient yourself in the air, as well as any twisting action that may have been imparted on your body during your tumble. How much you can do so, obviously, depends on the distance you're falling, and how clear headed and how athletic you are.

Decisive, immediate action is obviously the most important aspect of trying to right yourself during a fall.

Again, you have 1.5 seconds from the height of 20' until you hit the ground. Accidentally falling off a ladder at 20' will not give you time to react. You are taken by surprise. By the time you realize what happened, you are on the ground. 1.5 seconds....

1.5 seconds can be an eternity in a stressful situation.

At the drag strip people regularly react to an external stimulus in a mere fraction of that time.
In 1.5 seconds a gunfight can be over, from start, ie from holstered leather, to finish.

All you have to do during any downward fall is get your hands (or feet) out and oriented as best you can to break the initial impact, and decide in your head what way you're going let your momentum make you roll, and then tuck your shoulder and/or head as you do roll, and you're already WAY better off than someone who just says "OH SPIT!!!"

1.5 seconds is way more than enough time to do all of that.

Again though, it is a matter of knowing what to do and then doing so decisively. Knowing to deploy your arms in a way that's most likely to cause a roll. Knowing to tuck your head or shoulder. Knowing to let your momentum cause the roll.

Will it always work? No.

What ever does though? Nothing.

Doesn't mean you shouldn't try.

About six years ago I fell about 9 or 10 feet off a ladder at work and was in a sedated coma in ICU for a month due to injuries.

I supposed I should have practiced more.

No, clearly the correct response is to make no effort whatsoever to lessen your fall, because it's "impossible," and not even worth bothering to try.

10 feet is a tough distance though. Just high enough to really f you up, yet so low that reaction time is extremely limited. You'd be better off falling 20 feet in most cases i suspect, you'd have twice as much time to get yourself ready.

Look what i found on a skateboarding site, instructions on how to fall, imagine that:

"Falling

# Although falling may seem counterproductive to learning how to skateboard, it is a skill essential to reduce the risk of injury. When you lose balance or know you will fall, try to hug the board or ground so the fall is closer to the ground. When hitting the ground, the fleshy parts of the body like the thighs, calves, arms, and stomach absorb most of the impact that would be taken by your bones. Rolling after a fall minimizes the surface area that skids or scrapes against your body." (and reduces the total impact force by up to 30%, as noted in one of the above posted links)

Read more: Skateboarding Safety Rules | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5125102_skateboarding-safety-rules.html#ixzz0sZsaQk1W

No it is not. I have first hand experience in accidentally falling at a height of 20', you do not. I can tell you, that you are in for the ride and that you will have only realized what happened after you are on the ground. Everything you have said is based on premeditation. When I have purposely jumped from the same height it is a completely different story.

So i've fallen 20 feet and not been hurt, and had plenty of time to get my hands out and roll.

But then not all pigs are created equal. AFAIC 1.5 seconds is plenty of time to throw your hands out for the purpose of starting a roll unless you're in a totally effed position. If you have time to say "SPIT!" then you had more than enough time to get your hands out, tuck your head and roll on your shoulder as you land. If you're falling feet first, you absorb the blow with your legs and roll (either fwd or backward) as you hit a squatting position. If you're falling dead back first, just put ONE arm out and it will cause you to begin to roll sideways as you land. Your wrist/arm may break, but the roll will greatly reduce the shock to your back.

If you're falling face first, rolling is easy.

Can ya always roll out of trouble? No. But you should always try.

Seriously, if you didn't even react to a 20 foot fall until after you hit the ground, your reaction times are extremely sub par amigo. No offense, but that's NOT good. A sucker punch or any punch in a fight comes in about 1/10th the 1.5 seconds you quoted in your earlier post. It's entirely possible to parry or block a punch, an event that takes 1/10th the time as the 20 foot fall we're discussing here.

That is a lot of time to get your hands up and think about how/where to start a roll, and what kind of roll.

Honestly a human being in good shape should be able to get their hands out to break a fall, including reaction time, in under a half second.

A true Ninja would never need workers comp, only their enemies.

Actually if i didn't roll with the impact when that minivan hit me, i would probably be dead.

As i got hit, the impact spun me, and i instinctively tucked and rolled as i hit the ground, just as i've been taught. The entire thing was over in a flash. But a flash is all you need to do something instinctively.

From a height of 5'7", i had time to react and roll, as opposed to just smashing flat on my back on the ground.

Studies have shown that rolling can reduce impact forces by up to 30%. I suggest that anyone who falls or gets hit by an object at a high rate of speed (including a punch) do their best to try and do just that....roll with the impact.

From a skiing site:

7) Fall Training -Learn how to fall, when to fall, and how to stop after a fall. In our opinion, if you do not have a well-practiced plan for the falls you normally experience, imagine the posture of a parachutist just before landing. Keep every joint in your body flexed moderately. Keep legs together. Keep your chin against your chest. Keep arms up and forward. Be prepared to use your arms to protect your head. After the fall, if you don't stop immediately, get into a position that allows you to see where you are going. If you attempt to stop yourself by engaging your skis, resist the instinct to fully straighten your legs. After you stop, try to remember as much as you can about what worked and what didn't, and modify your tactics accordingly. In time your falling technique could become as expert as your skiing.

VERMONT Ski Safety Research Equipment Workshops Snowboarding VSR DVD Videos

From an equestrian site:

Learn How to Fall Off Your Horse

Learn how to fall off your horse and what to do afterwards in this excerpt from the book Life in the Galloping Lane.

By Karen and David O'Connor
Left end of clickability buttonsLeft end of clickability buttons

There is an art to falling off in a way that minimizes your chances of getting hurt. And learning that art is just as important as learning how to sit the trot properly or get a clean flying change.

When you become unseated, the most important thing you can do is not stick out your legs or arms. If you try to break your fall, the odds are that what you'll break is a bone. (Horse stomp could be a real problem here)

The second most important thing to remember is to roll away from your horse. You don't want him to fall on you--or to step on you when he's getting up or running away.

Remember the tumbling classes you had when you were little? Just about every kid has to go through these; they're mandatory because (especially as kids) we all fall down, so gym teachers try to teach us how to absorb the shock of falling. In tumbling, you learned to tuck and roll. If you think of falling off as an act of tumbling at speed, you can see the logic of following the same guidelines. Of course, we adults typically want to analyze, calculate and make a fast decision as we fall, but that can be a real mistake. Kids don't get hurt as often as we grownups because they just tuck and roll instinctively, without a lot of deliberation.

Rule number three: If you fall, don't hold onto the reins. Holding on is a good way to dislocate your shoulder, or to give your horse such a yank in the mouth that he'll get even more upset than he was when you and he first went your separate ways.

http://www.equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/eventing/falloff_041406/

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I don't care if it's a horse, a motorcycle, skis, a skateboard, a fast rope, a cliff or a ladder....you can learn how to fall to greatly reduce the damage you suffer in many if not most cases.

If you'd just have dropped into a Monkey Roll, you would have been A-O-Tay!

Not only that, but every ailment he has ever suffered with would be immediately cured!

I'm going to 'go out on a limb' here...

Drop 100 dudes from 23 feet.
Only Snipe gets away unhurt because of fierce and efficient monkey roll. :D


KT

i'd bet that after minimal instruction you could get 95% to have no major injuries in a fall from 23 feet. That's only 2 stories.

Again, a typical paratrooper withstands a greater impact in every single jump he undergoes. Of course, paratroopers are taught to roll upon landing.

But by all means, let the ribbing continue. :D

C'mon snipe, how about doing the jump?

How much would it take to get you to leap off a 23 foot roof, videotape and show it?

We can get a fund going! I'm in for $10.

That would be premeditated and the chances of landing on your feet, with bent knees, then rolling would be easy to do.

Try that as you are caught by surprise as you slip off the ladder or tree branch at 20'. You will not realize what happened until you are on the ground. That's just the way it is.

There's a good chance Snipe is always poised to enter a monkey roll at a moments notice.
I give him a pass.

The rest of us are domed...


KT

Sniper.... I swear you have to be the DUMBEST most STUBBORN guy here... This thread was not started to discuss the fall height.... It was started b/c someone was seriously injured and we were all being told to watch out....


As someone that works at heights and has family that works at heights daily your idiotic responses really make no sense... Sure a paratrooper survives it... They are also TOTALLY prepared and land FEET FIRST! 23ft is more than enough distance to kill you if you fall unexpectedly.... Hell 10ft is enough to kill you if you land on the back or your neck. We are all very careful when we are working b/c one fall could always be your last. If you are working you usually don't realize you are falling until your azz hits the ground.


Just drop it.. YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT!

The only way to do this experiment is to enlist the help of tabs... We set a computer 23' up on a platform, Bill can get involved looking at spoons, cold steel blades or skanky ho's. When Bill is nice and focused/distracted on the screen, tabs comes up and pushes him out of the tree.... Then lets see what happens..

Yes he is!

Best,
Tom

I volunteer our crane truck... But I have dyslexia... It may be 32' he gets put at....

the guy was likely about 60 yrs old!

The stewardess... did she do a monkey roll??
Do you think she would manage to survive a second fall from this height??
NO? Then I think we can safely call this one: a lucky landing...

No need to get all worked up on this guys.

One can indeed train to absorb the impact of a high fall.
But even a trained commando with a ninja training background will need a certain amount of LUCK in order to just dust off his sleeve and walk away. (even from a mere 23 feet)
Knowing that my uncle is not a young, fit paratrooper, nor is he a ninja, I think it is safe to say he was lucky.

(at least we think so, it is looking good but we still don't have 100% confirmation that he will have no permanent injuries)

Good to hear he is doing ok.... Every year we hear of several guys in my dads profession being killed in falls....

I know a guy that fell 60ft and lived..... He was wearing several layers of warm winter clothes though... and he landed in a huge snow drift.... We count him as the luckiest SOB we know....

No you wouldn't. Simple math should tell you that. So from 23ft you have less than 1 second to prepare yourself for something you are completely unprepared for.

"On the earth, the acceleration rate of a free-falling body is 32 feet per second per second of fall (9.8 meters per second squared). This means that for each second the body is falling, its velocity increases 32 feet per second, up to a limiting velocity of approximately 125 miles per hour."

Your uncle hit the ground hard, hopefully he'll make a full recovery. Best wishes.

I wonder if we know the same guy?

The one I know fell out of a airplane and landed in a drift between two cut sunflower fields.

I've fallen off a ladder. Actually the ladder lost it's purchase on the ground (no spotter). Lucky for me it was only 10' or so, just some bruised shins. But I will tell you that cat-like twisting (I don't have a tail) and rolling after you land is of no help whatsoever when the ladder is still under you. Rolling also implies you have some sort of forward momentum. It's truly a challenge to roll when you come straight down on your side, back or face.
Snipe's point about controlled 2 storey falls being very survivable is valid. Just not applicable to this scenario. That lady falling off the 10' ladder would not have been better off by having an additional 10' to react, nor would most people (Ninja's included). IMHO there just aren't that many average human beings who could fall out of a 20' tree without significant injury.
Geronimo's uncle is, pardon the expression, lucky. Best wishes to him.

Hey snipe will monkey sex do the same as a monkey roll :-) ?

I've made over 100 military jumps while in the Army. Prior to most military jumps (non-free fall) you do some practice parachute landing falls. A PLF is something like Sniper is talking about where you land and try to roll over on to your left or right side. Catch the wind just right and you will do the head rattling "feet, ass, head" PLF. The platform you jump off of is set at a height to have you hit the ground at a speed approximate to the speed you would hit using a parachute. So, how tall is this platform? Four feet.

4 feet? ppffft.
Snipe could do that blindfolded with one arm tied behind his back.

you are wise for your young age..hahaha.

Sorry to hear about your uncle.


on a side note, this is my kind of ninja training:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1278264872.jpg