Buisness legal advise needed.

[72 four door]

I am a painting contractor and have been working for these perticular people for over 20 yrs.Ive always had verbal contracts with them,and payment was never an issue. They moved into a mcmansion and I had painted a few rooms just walls and ceilings and charged them about 600.00 a room. [these rooms are about 15/18 with boxed trim which were detailed with another color] last april they called and wanted more painting done. which consisted of the basement 75/30 the great room, hall,kit, ceiliing,walls and trim all 2coats. caulking all gaps and fixing nailpops golore. we started the job and the wife wanted the master bedroom,bath done basement bath,and bigger shoe molding installed and the piano room ceiling repaired. add 2200.00. So then were on the job and shes wants the guest room done, laundry 4 baths, and I,m putting paint swatches on the walls so he knows whats going on. basically I did the whole house and I finish give them the bill 3000 in paint and 18000.00 in labor . it took us 3 months to do. The husband freaks and just gives me 10000.00 and wants to get other bids I guess to find out if my prices are fair. Do I have any rights? geez I busted tail and feel so freakin screwed. I just don't know what to do.

[McLovin]

Does your state require contractors to have agreements in writing?

Are you licensed? If not, does your state require that to get paid?

Did he actually pay you the $10K already?

3 months of labor, $3K in materials, that's a lot to do without any written agreement or progress payments. No matter what happens, that should be a lesson learned.

Unless you have something in your state law that prevents you from being paid (like you need to be licensed, and you are not), you are always going to have rights. For example, you have an oral contract that you can enforce. You also provided labor and goods to him, for which you'd have a "equitable" right to be paid under various theories.

But, of course, justice costs money, often a lot of money, and time.

If you could get $10K from him, without waiving any claims, that'd be a great start. You will have then reduced an $18K dispute to an $8K dispute. That would be good because you then would be getting close to a small claims case in most states.

If he refuses to pay what you think you are owed, the remedy is simple - sue him. But if you hire a lawyer, file a regular case, etc. that is going to cost quite a bit. If you can get the dispute down to the small claims level, it would then cost you very little to bring a suit, and you'd at least have your day in court to see what happens.

The other method is to simply negotiate a resolution with him that you both can live with.

[72 four door]

yes he gave me 10000 but 3000 was materials my help labor was 2000 I just hope the contractors that he has to come and do estimates will be legitimate apainting contractors. O I have learned my lesson [pretty harsh one at that] and will always keep people abreast of the amount right along. Uggg lessoned learned.

[A930Rocket]

Ouch! That has to hurt. Besides written contracts, weekly or biweekly draws might help and let them know their limit ( and keep your exposure down ).

Good luck!

[72 four door]

yes he gave me 10000 but 3000 was materials my help labor was 2000 I just hope the contractors that he has to come and do estimates will be legitimate painting contractors. O I have learned my lesson [pretty harsh one at that] and will always keep people abreast of the amount right along. Uggg lessoned learned.

[72 four door]

crap i just posted that. yes I can understand why he was annoyed . geez I would be too. just hope he's honest with the estimates

[RWebb]

save your notes on time & materials

save receipts for materials to show when you bought them (to help show the dates you worked)

Good Luck!

[Zeke]

Once people start down that road they just show what dirtbags they really are. I'd play along with his half assed game and see what I could get out of him and be done with him. I've had too many bad experiences with people that have that kind of money and try to screw you when the time comes to pay for all the "extras."

In the future when you see other trades working at dirtbag's house, tell them your story. Bad news travels fast.

[john70t]

I want to give you the benefit of the doubt, but $21,000 for painting?
What a rip.
Installing moulding and prep is labor intensive, but three months is a lot of time even for a beginer. And it didn't involve wallpaper.

At least that's what it looks like from "an outsiders" perspective. I'm just playing the devils advocate here.

When all the extras started getting added on, you should have had a sit-down with them to talk about time and numbers.
This lack of communication is often what breaks relationships: The homeowner gets nosy and bossy and expects all kinds of extras for free. The contractor gets fed up, doesn't return phone calls and/or just does it "his own way". Both lose.

[MT930]

Expensive business lesson

Never work without a written contract.

These are interesting times I have been on both sides. The odds are stacked against you from a legal standpoint.

[ramonesfreak]

ive painted alot of houses...$18K for 3 months? i wasted alot of money going to law school. anyway, the only way your gonna get your money 'possibly' is to sue.

understand this...if you sue, you might find an attorney to work on a contingency fee basis which means you pay nothing (except expenses) to the attorney unless you win.

However, he the defendant, will have to pay an attorney cash up front as a retainer, and more as the case progresses in order to defend himself. if your case is strong, this may motivate him to offer you something to settle the issue.

Whether the Statute of Frauds defense applies, and whether or not you can beat that defense, I dont know as i am not a contract attorney. my gut feeling is that your full performance of the work and additional purchases of supplies and payroll would overcome any Statute of Frauds defense. Any decent attorney should offer you a free consultation.

even a simple one page contract will save you alot of headaches in the future...if you get around to drafting one yourself, i would be happy to look it over for you anytime, no charge.

good luck

[Zeke]

The thing that irks me the most about Mr. Dirtbag is that he now intends to get estimates for work already done. IOW, he's planning on wasting other contractors' time. This guy is an amateur douche bag.

[john70t]

Without knowing more specifics of the work performed: A "$21K bill just for interior painting" is on the high-side, especially without an estimate/contract.
I think most outsiders would agree. Geesh, some contractors could pull the walls, restud, redrywall, and repaint for that.

However, $3K in materials indicates that a signifigant amount of work was done.
High-end patterned moulding is difficult to install, and requires a signifigant amount of skill and experience to install. 45deg cuts with glue make an intricate room very time consuming.
The specifics and original condition of this situation are still unknown.

Hope the house was built with correct insulation, soffits, and vapor barriers so the homeowners don't have to do it all over again a year from now.

[Zeke]

Mcmansions can be a lot tougher to paint than an average home. Higher ceilings, more detail and lots more furniture and trinkets to move around and cover. That plus the color scheme mentioned and he only charged $1500 a week for more than one person?

If I were still in a full fledged contracting business with overhead, I need 800 a day for myself according to my accountant. Of course, I never made that goal, not once. But, 1500/wk for even 2 painters is modest.

Remember, 40% (15% self employment tax before deductions, plus state and fed income tax) comes off the top for taxes. So, even if he's paying one helper 100 a day under the table, he's taking home (or netting) 600 a week. Can you live on that?

Don't nit pick my calculations, it's just a way of making a point. In addition, if he's deducting his gas, he still pays for the gas. It's not like business deductions are money in the bank. So, it's 40% even if you cut it different ways.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by srandallf

understand this...if you sue, you might find an attorney to work on a contingency fee basis which means you pay nothing (except expenses) to the attorney unless you win.

That's a theoretical possibility, but in real life it would be nigh impossible to find an atty to take an $8K case on a contingency. I'd go as far to say that if you could find an atty who would do that, you probably don't want to hire him.

[ramonesfreak]

Originally Posted by McLovin

That's a theoretical possibility, but in real life it would be nigh impossible to find an atty to take an $8K case on a contingency. I'd go as far to say that if you could find an atty who would do that, you probably don't want to hire him.

having handled many cases that were worth that while working for very successful firms, i would say your statement is totally wrong and not based on the reality of what those in the legal profession do

settling such a case may only invlove a demand letter, a few phone calls, filing a few documents and maybe 2 depos. all of which any attorney with experience can do with his/her eyes closed

can the plaintiff actually collect the judgment, that would be the more relevant question when considering whether or not to take such a case

[ramonesfreak]

and further ill add that charging an hourly rate in such a case as the above, in my opinion, looks shady in that it tempts the attorney to rack up billable hours. i feel the same about any case involving an uncertain and nominal monetary award to plaintiff.

[McLovin]

No offense intended, but I can now see why you are a long time unemployed atty.

[ramonesfreak]

Originally Posted by McLovin

No offense intended, but I can now see why you are a long time unemployed atty.

thanks alot

[berettafan]

I can't see the grumbling about his labor bill here. Where did he give us total man hours and sq footage painted?

Have (well...had....he passed away) a client who painted high end stuff. Had maybe 3 guys as helpers. Did a big job for a multi-unit project which bill totalled $70k. Customer knew full well what the job was going to cost. Very experienced guy. Job was done, units weren't selling and he told the painter 'not paying, you don't have a signed contract for the extras i asked for'. my client foolishly sent the original contract to the guy as proof and it now is no longer in existence.

Lesson is my client THOUGHT he had a very good relationship with the folks involved. Did a LOT of work for them and related parties.

Moral of the story?

Progress billings and K.