Creedmore Spoons
 

If you were going to the Creedmore 1000 yd Matches in 1877 you might be taking one of these Spoons with you. While the weight and trigger configuration of several of these spoons would have prohibited one from competing they are of the type used successfully in that era.

1. C Sharps model 1875 LR There wee only a few of these built as proto- types by the original Sharps Co in 1875-76.

2. Gibbs Style LR Percussion 451 Caliber, This was the type of spoon that the Irish, English, South African and Austalian teams used from the 1860's to the 1880's.

3. Shiloh Sharps LR Express, The Sharps model 1874 was used by the American team in 1876 to beat the spoon teams from the British empire. The 1874 Sharps is the rifle associated with the winning of the West

beautiful.

Incredible. Just perfect positioning of the wood grain, and the iridescence of the grain, man those are awesome.

I just bought a custom made 45-70 based on a Remington action and a 34 inch Badger barrel that was build by Doug Knoell of Santee CA who at one time held the world record for BPCR grouping at 200 yds. As soon as my right hand recovers from the surgery tomorrow for "trigger finger" and Dupuytrens disease on the thumb I plan to give it a good try. I made up some 350gr and 500gr lead cast boolits so they should work well.

Tabby showed you guys the rifles, so I'll show you what we load them with.

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Left to right we have the .45-2.1, or more commonly known as the .45-70, loaded with three different bullets. The first is the old Lyman 410 grain flat nose, a wonderful hunting bullet in these old guns. It's loaded over 53 grains of Goex FFg and 7.0 grains of Alliant Reloder 7 for a muzzle velocity of just over 1400 fps from my original Ballard Pacific, manufactured in about 1884. I've taken my biggest mulie to date with that rifle and load.

The next two are target loads, the first being the RCBS .45-500 BPS, a 500 grain spitzer, loaded over 65 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 Fg. I won the Oregon Territorial Long Range Championship some years ago shooting this load in my C. Sharps Arms '75 Sharps. The next is the same load, but substituting the 540 grain Jones Creedmoor Bullet. This load, in either my '75 Sharps or my old Ballard, has won countless mid range (out to 600 yard) matches for me. Both loads just break 1100 fps.

Next are two .45-2.6 loads, aka .45-100. This was the rarest of the original Sharps chamberings, only being chambered in match rifles (no hunting rifles) for a year or two before being superseded by the .45-2.4, or .45-90. The two bullets shown are the same Jones Creedmoor and a Hoch 550 grain bullet from a custom nose pour mold made by Dave Farmer. 95 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 Fg pushes either into the mid 1300 fps range. Both loads are proven match winners in my '74 Sharps (again from C. Sharps Arms), having garnered medals and trophies from 600 to a full 1,000 yards.

Next are the bullets that make these old guns speak:

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Left to right, we have the old Lyman 410 grain flat nose hunting bullet, a 480 grain Saeco short range match bullet, the RCBS .45-500 BPS 500 grain spitzer, the old Lyman 500 grain Government round nose (as originally loaded for the Trapdoor), the 535 grain NEI tapered bullet, the 540 grain Jones Creedmoor, and finally the 550 grain Hoch. All are cast 20:1 lead/tin, lubed with either SPG or my own homemade lube, and fired as cast (unsized). A loaded .45 ACP 230 grain round nose is shown for comparison.

Don't know anything about them, but stunning.

Wow!!! The combination of art and functionality is amazing.

Very nice!

too purty to shoot, almost

Those are some purty spoons. Thank you.

I have a real love/hate relationship with Hugo's Sharps. Compare it to the '75 action in tabby's first post - the '75 is the one they should have built, but bringing Mr. Borchardt on board spelled its demise, in favor of his own iteration of it. As a result, the Borchardt spelled the demise of the Sharps rifle company.

The Borchardt was superior to the '75 in every way but one - the world was not ready for it. The lack of an external hammer, being replaced by an internal striker, caught everyone off guard. They didn't trust it. They were used to cocking hammers to make guns fire. Not being able to see a hammer, to feel a hammer, to control a hammer, just didn't sit well with riflemen of the day. The new fangled safety - the second trigger behind the one that makes it fire - did not provide the feeling of comfort and familiarity that cocking a hammer provided. So, in the end, the Borchardt spelled the demise of one of my favorite rifle companies.

I've owned a couple of Borchardts over the years. They are not legal for NRA competition, lacking the required external hammer, so I've never owned a match version of one. My last "sporter", marked "J.P. Lower" (the famous Denver distributor back in the day) was a sporterized military carbine in .45-70. It went to a famous (now infamous) Montana gunsmith about 15 years ago to replace some broken parts. He was actually advertising Borchardt replicas at the time, and his now equally infamous brother in Wyoming was advertising Ballard replicas. I never got the rifle back, and I never heard from him again.

JP Lower himself decried the 1878..saying it would never catch on because of the very thing you said, "No external hammer." However in the end Lower discovered their worth and competed with 3 or 4 of the infamous 78's in TGT Matchs.

he 78 was excellent where it counted and that is in accuracy....

A friend of mine that runs a shooting supply company in Idaho has won the NRA long range championship with a Borchardt. So, let me clarify - it's legal for long range, just not silhouette.

Borchardts have weird triggers, a function of the early striker fired action. There is nothing you can do to remove all of the slop, creep, and over travel. It's worth getting used to that, though, as the other advantages outweigh that shortcoming. The lack of all that swinging hammer mass, and the offset blow when it lands, can be seen when dry firing one. A '74 really jumps around when the hammer falls, where a Borchardt doesn't even move.

Old thread I know but I wanted to further discuss your #1. I think Sharps also rebuilt rifles updating them to be used as market guns. I have one such gun. It was an original Sharps 1859 that began life as a percussion carbine using paper cartridge bullets and pellets for ignition. At some point it was converted to centerfire. It was then again converted to .45-100 and a double set trigger added. I suspect that was accomplished between 1876 and 1878. I shot a few rounds keeping pressures around 18K cpu using 24 gr of H4918 behind a 545 gr round nosed bullet. It shot 3/4 MOA at 100 yds. I shot a few more rounds at 200 yds to see if it held a decent MOA. I also chrony'd it at 1129 fps avg. Slow, big, freight train. It shoots almost dead center on a 7 inch steel plate. Testing done I plan to now load it with BP to shoot Mid and Long Range. BTW, the bullet busted the welds on plate even though it was moving slow. I guess it's hard to stop a freight train once it gets moving.

Bob http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435503813.jpg

Bob,

Sure looks like a nice guy. Any chance for more photos?

Joe A

Any pictures of the action, Bob? This should be a "slant breach" action if it started out shooting paper cartridges. Pretty darn cool.

Our ".45-100", originally referred to as the ".45-2.6" was one of the rarest of Sharps chamberings. They soon shortened the case to 2.4" (known today as the ".45-90"), while maintaining the same overall length. Both case lengths were loaded with 90 to 100 grains of powder.

When I was actively shooting long range matches, I settled on the .45-2.6 for use with grease groove bullets. The extra .2" of case would serve to cover all of the grease grooves when seating a 540-550 grain bullet over 90 grains of powder. The .45-2.4 would leave at least the forward, if not two of the grease grooves exposed. Some folks are comfortable with that, but I never did like it.

The shorter case is better with paper patched bullets. More bullet is exposed and, since they were patched to bore diameter, supported by and centered in the bore itself. Almost no one shoots paper patch these days, though. It's a real PIA...

Hi Jeff! It's not a slant breech. I think it was the first of the straight falling blocks. I think it has 5 patent marks on it.
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Here's a few more, folks. Hope you enjoy looking at them. Bob
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Jeff, thanks for your help. I'll be emailing you back tonight. Bob

Jeff, I almost forgot. My bullet sticks out almost 2 grease groves to touch the lands. I'm not sure just how much BP I'm going to end up with if I go with a jump. I suspect the long leade is due to it being an old rifle? In the lands using the 24 gr of h4198 it shot 3/4 inch at 100 yds.

One a side note I got my Dave Crossno .22lr barrel yesterday. I pushed it into my 1885 Browning High Wall went to the range and shot 60 rounds to see how it would shoot.
The first five through the barrel was spent adjusting the scope at 100 yds. The next 10 shot inside 1 inch in a stiff wind. The winds were alternating from my left rear quarter all the way around to my my right front at 10-15 mph. I was shooting SK plus and some 10X as Dave told me his barrels seem to like subsonic bullets. Since I already shoot those bullets with my Anschutz I had some lying around to shoot. Another bud was at the range and he was shooting some RWS Match Target in his CZ and it was shooting a 7 inch group ar 50 yds. I asked him I could try a few rounds of that ammo and I tried them. That ammo shot around 3/4 inch at 100 yds.

I then dialed 7 MOA down to 45 yds and shoot some chickens. Dead center with everything I had. I redialed right back up to 100 yds and was dead on again. I'm really learning to love that Malcolm 6X Scope.

I did not shoot the Sharp today as I ordered a new Long Range Soule Sight from Lee Shaver and it hasn't arrived yet. If I shows tomorrow I'm going to go dial it in.

Bob

Im not sure if I can post pics...or I might have to wait on someone to ok it.
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Hmm if I just upload them they go..
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A few more.

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My lovely wife has pneumonia and I have to run and get her meds. Be back in a bit.
Thanks
Bob

Very cool, Bob. I was mistaken on the years for the early slant breech rifles - they stopped building them in 1855. I see your 1859 issue rifle is indeed a vertical breech.

I love the Lawrence patent percussion cap feeder. I'm not sure they actually worked as planned, but it's a cool thing to still have on the earlier rifles. Lots of them were removed.

Boy, if you can still seat bullets two grooves out in a 2.6" case, that thing is going to hold some black powder. 100 to 110 grains will have to be the order of the day. Ouch... I've not only found recoil from such charges to be a bit much in my 14 pound match rifle, but fouling builds too quickly as well. It's definitely past the point of diminishing returns for a .45 caliber. Maybe you can seat them deeper with black powder and live with a bit more jump into the rifling. I like about a .100" jump in my black powder rifles.

My current lot of Swiss 1.5 fg likes minimal compression, so I'm only loading 85 grains of it. This makes it much easier to control the fouling, and recoil isn't so bad. Try seating deeper so all grooves are covered and you can load less powder. You might be surprised.

Very nice Bob!

Thanks for the pics!

Thanks, Joe!

I found a couple of more pics. Hope you're interested...

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I might have posted this one before, not sure but it is the 1000 yard muzzle loader I mage about 1 1/2 years ago. It uses 120 grains of Goex FFG, 560 grain paper patch 45 caliber bullet and 1:16 34 inch barrel. So far I have it shooting 1 inch groups at 300 yards and it only took me a year to get to this point and I did add a 6x Malcolm scope 4 months ago! I also have a Gibbs that shoots the same bullet/powder and is just about as accurate. The long range BP muzzle loading and cartridge shooting is way more of a challenge than most other rifles.
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A lot of history surrounding the Creedmoor rifle. I live about 2 miles from the old range. Birthplace of the NRA's first range to develope marksmanship in the 1870's. The NRA bought 70 acres from the Creed family to start a range that hosted the prior version of the Palma trophy. Guns were developed to compete. The National Guard practiced there. Noise complaints caused it close. Then it became a large sprawling mental institution. Even today, the surrounding streets bear the names that harken back to a bygone era: Winchester Blvd, Musket St, Range St, Gettysburg St, Sabre St, etc.

John, more pics please!

I have a Browning 1885 BPCR High Wall with the Malcom 6X. I plan on taking the rifle out to 1k, too.

The biggest problem I have when I start stretching out the yardage with these old howitzers is just how far your cheek moves above the stock. Cheek weld just about goes out the window.]http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1435944573.jpg

This post needs videos!

Wish I could figure out how to do that on a forum.

AS I mentioned before I got a Dave Crossno .22lr insert for my 1885 and my Sharps as in it fits in both rifles and I took it to the range. WOW! With that Malcolm Scope on it the dialing back and forth between 100 and 50 yds was as simple as moving the flats on the elevation screw up or down. Each movement of the flat from one to the next is one MOA. Count 7 flats and the darned thing is dead center on the target. Count 7 flats back and its dead on at the previous distance. Adjusting for different ranges is as fast as you counting the flats and you;re back shooting. I can't wait until I start ranging out 200-300-500-600 + yards with simple dialing using the Browning 1885.

Bob

Here is a Gibbs copy I made using some lace wood and about 25 coats of clear lacquer. Note there is no cheek weld area as I have a half a dozen pieces of fairly solid foam of various thicknesses that sit over the top of the stock to raise my head up as that tang sight goes up. Same hardware and load info as the rifle in the earlier picture.

Opps forgot the picture.
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That's a nice looking rifle!

Bob

Jeff,

Silly question here. Do you see many original Sharps shooting at matches?

Thanks
Bob

At our monthly muzzle loading matches about 25% of the rifles are original and usually SMOOTH BORES! We do have the national champion shoot with us and he beats most of us most of the time. We also have some who shoot original 69 caliber hunting pistols and they do well also. At the cartridge matches we have at Pala, most all the guns are new.

Used to be most of the rifles were originals. The first reproductions, the "Farmingdale" guns from Wolfgang Droege, were anything but "match" rifles. The originals simply shot better. They do, however, have a different bore to chamber relationship than we use today. The bores are oversize and the chambers are undersize. Modern cast bullet wisdom decrees we shoot bullets .001" to .002" over groove diameter, which works great with both smokeless and black in either rifles or handguns. The original rifles, however, were set up to shoot bore (not groove) diameter bullets. When loading groove diameter bullets, they often will not even chamber - they are too big in diameter.

When competition heated up, and we needed rifles that could really shoot, we all started sending our rifles off to either John King of Kila, MT, or to Lee Shaver for re-barreling or just re-chambering. Badger was the preferred barrel, but Krieger, Douglas, and even Ron Jones gain twist barrels were used.

Once Shilo mover to Big Timber, then split in two to create C. Sharps Arms, it was off to the races - the modern rifles started to rule the roost. Lots of us started to regret having "butchered" our originals by re-barreling and whatnot. Oh well, we needed them to really shoot, and collectors be damned.

Funny, since this is a Porsche forum, I can't help but comment on the irony of it all. I'm an early car kind of guy, and I love to hot-rod them. I've been the Pac West "Chaptermeister" for the R Gruppe for a decade now. We are similarly accused of "butchering" original, and now very valuable cars. Eff 'em - we are having a lot of fun, and could care less about any "collector value". Same with these rifles - we would rather fix them up to "drive" better than sit in our smoking rooms, cigars and brandy in hand, admiring them.

I think that's the same with everything. I swapped a friend an Savage over/under 20 Ga for a brought home Garand that the guy had gunsmith sporterize after WWII. He didn;t want it anymore because all he ever got when he went to the range was, "Blasphemy! A ruined Garand". I told him I wouldn't worry about what everyone else thinks. I got the rifle to the range and it shot better than any Garand I ever owned or shot. When I think more about it there was some guy that went to Europe to fight for his country. He carried that rifle for 2-3 years or more, slept with it, ate with it and it kept him alive. He brought it home and had it made into a deer rifle he thought so much of it.Who am I to question some war hero actions?

When I was a kid you could go to any gunshop and have your pick of the barrel with Lee Enfields for $20. The first thing we did was cut up the stock to make it into a light weight deer hunting rifle. Now there are Mosin Nagant collectors? Who in Gawds name wants one of those POS's? LOL!

Here's a couple of pics of that rifle:
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Bob