How Dangerous IS this?
 

I pulled off the baseboard to do some plastering, painting & put up some nice baseboard and...

WTF??


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1285040551.jpg

Obviously, this is not to code, but how dangerous is it? I'd like to reassemble this room (home office) and get on to fixing the leaking shift rod seal in the car, or wiring the stereo in the Vanagon, or...

The cable, which looks to be Romex runs behind the baseboard along this wall about 9 feet to near an outlet and in in the wall elec. heater. I don't know if feeds to or from one, both or neither one of those 2 items -- it just dives into an old patch in the wall about 8" away. I guess I now know why there was a poorly done, ugly patch in the wall right there...

So, let me know what you think.

This sits on top of a concrete stem wall, but if I can't access it from below, I can always tear the wall apart - if I HAVE to...

oh yeh - ignore the coathanger on the right - it is there to mark where I can feed CAT-6 cable up from the bottom room (good thing I didn't drill right into the electrical cable when doing that)

BTW - I tested the cable and it did not seem to be hot - tho I don't really trust those little $8 beepers...

Old homes, gotta love em:p

One line looks kinda like a phone line..

yes, that one of the 2 phone lines to the right of the coat hanger

the black, white & copper ground are to the left of the coathanger; the yellow is a wire nut

- house isn't really "old" in my book - built in 1963 "modern style" -- I'd rather have a Victorian, but this one was cheap, in the right place and had room for my car

carpet ignites pretty easily...

I'd say you have to

I'm wondering if there was a baseboard heater and it was removed (replaced with the in the wall heater) and someone just added a little wire to make the new location work.

How safe is it? No junction box. Wires not protected or installed at the right height. Wire may be too small for the run to the new heater. Is heater properly grounded?

Perfectly safe till something happens and then your insurance company cancels your claim.

Hire electrician, pull permit, open wall, rewire properly, have inspected, close wall (new drywall), paint and forget about it.

Or use glue to put new baseboards on and remember to never drive a nail into that wall. Cross fingers.

Explore. If it goes some place, rewire according to code. If it goes nowhere, remove.

This will teach you about remodeling. Should have sat on the sofa with a beer and surfed PPOT like I did. What you don't know ...

George

the house definitely seems to have had baseboard heaters in all rooms that were replaced by the in wall units

seems odd that the wire doesn't show as hot...

Are the heaters marked in your electrical panel? If marked, are they 110v or 220? Is there any wires not connected to the panel that run to that area of the house?

Better get Mike Holmes in there.

Actually it is a lot like working on an old Porsche. Lots of discovery learning with wiring.

I think if the house was wired for floor heaters, you should be able to find the other end somewhere near the electrical box. If you can, you can then put the baseboard back on, and cut off (mark for future reference) the other end.

I would also cut off and pull out as much of the wire behind the baseboard as you could just to make it neat.

If you can't find the other end, I tend to agree with GWN7. Fix it right or you would always worry about it.

first off, i'd fix that mess.

second, did you test the circuit with the t-stat on or off? that could be the reason for no juice being there.


enjoy the remodel

That should be fixed to code...

Old homes always have stuff like that going on and the sad part is that the creative building is always hidden by some sort of fancy covering plate like a baseboard.

Not to get off topic but that wall is rougher than I would have in a shed...

If it is a disconnected baseboard heater line that is no longer used, AND if the other end is pulled from the breaker box, then it is legal.

Buy a fox and hound and trace the wire. It is likely live and needs to be replaced.

I did get a hit off of that little beeper gizmo (finally).

fox and hound is not a good investment if you mean this $110 + shipping thing
Triplett Fox and Hound Testers available from Lashen Electronics

what does it do??

That fox and hound is an inductive wire tracer. The probe pics up the signal that is put on the wire by a signal generator. Generally, you'd put the generator at the junction box and you can trace the wire from there, often through building materials and down to the wire where it comes out the wall. Not familiar with the fox and hound but these type of tracers are very handy.

George

My best friend is a union foreman, his favorite line is "when in doubt, rip it out".;)

The occasional "beep" from the electrical tester does not mean the circuit is hot. They react to static electricity. If the circuit was hot, the beeper would be making a continous sound. Test the beeper gizmo with a known live circuit (extension cord, lamp cord, etc.).

The "Fox & Hound" allows you to trace the wiring audibly.

It looks a little weird being down on the ground like that. Are they hot? Touch em. Or just pull the nuts and touch them together real quick, see if a fuse blows.

If their hot and you have to keep them you can always just open the wall about a foot and move the wires up into the wall cavity and put them in a junction box. It's no big deal and then just buy a drywall square to patch it up.Materials can't cost more than ten bucks.

If those are hot I wouldn't want them on the ground like that, just because of water and things.
They could just be old thermostat wiring, those things don't carry much load.

Either way, If their hot and you want to keep them, just move em up.

The real problem is that if it goes up in flames you probably won't have time to grab the camcorder and get a video, and then the power is out and the computer is down so you can't get it on YouTube for us to see.

(I would leave them alone and just make sure you find the junction and disconnect/make sure they're dead. No reason to start hacking up the wall.)

ok, the heater in the wall is a Cadet (hopefully, not the type of Cadet that throws out sparks and burns down your house) and it IS a 240 V unit. The outlet next to it is on 110V. Still unclear as to what the wire goes to.

I have 2 options on this:

[1] I can try to put the wire ends with the nut in a junction box (somehow - not sure if the wires are long enough) and then tear out the wall (that I just paid a guy to re plaster) to run the wires inside the wall from the wire nut area over to the heater or the outlet inside the wall.

[2] same with the J-box but I drill down into the room below, run the wires over down there and then up into the heater or outlet from below. I conveniently pulled out some of the ceiling down below last year - got bored or cabin crazy during the winter...
I have booze stored down there and have moved some of it out of the way, but still maybe a bigger job to get access if I do that (the wires will come out above some wall headers or whatever you call them (Plates?).

unnnhhh... then I won't have heat in my office for the winter

ok, this is definitely the cable to the 240V heater - white/black/gnd - so single phase (???)

the feed to the 110V outlet comes in from the top (not the bottom) is silver, not white like this Romex

now, I do NOT want to trust the moron PO's choice of cable size so what type of cable do I need to buy for a 220V run to a Cadet heat that is rated for 2.25 kW output?

the cable to the heater is LOT more flexible and smaller than the feed cable running to the wire nut jct. they made

If you have a 240V heater, you're going to need more than a white, a black and a ground wire. Specifically, you'll need one more wire.

So, I am not sure the investigation is done yet...

JR

This is very common for 220 volt outlets like ACs, compressors etc. If you don't need the neutral you don't have to provide it.

I would just fix it. Those wires aren't meant to be buried in drywall mud.

Jam the wires back in, a lil spackle will fix that right up...

Agreed. If it's 220 or 240 you will have 2 110 wires running to it, a neutral and a ground.

If it's 110 you will only have 1.


My guess is that the previous owner just jumped some romex into an existing outlet, most likely the one 9' away then ran it down behind the base to make a new outlet. Or even from an outlet on the other side of the wall.

I still say cut open the wall a bit on one side and move the wires up. Put em in a junction box and close it back up.
Tell you the truth, I have a couple of connections like that at my house but i always wrap them with something and they are never on the ground like that.
A junction box would be the best .
I doubt they are ever going to spark and catch fire but you want to contain the spark if it ever did.

I'd say your main concern is getting them off the floor. If you had a minor flood, a spill or even an aggressive carpet cleaner you would get those things wet. They wouldn't catch fire but they would flip the breaker and then you wouldn't be able to turn it back on until the water was gone.
Plus live wires on the floor would shock the hell out of you, or even kill you if you stepped in the water and the breaker failed.

Foot in water, live electricity in water. Not a good combo.
Move em up. Just a few inches is all it takes.

True, so long as there's nothing else in the unit that requires 120V, like a fan motor, controls, etc. I have no idea what heater he has, so if I were Randy, I'd replace the circuit with a four-wire one, since I'm going to have to do something. I'd rather have an extra wire than be short one, especially if down the road I might change the heater.

Plus, I can envision an idiot doing things with three wires that are better done with four, so I'd do a little digging to find out just what the previous idiot actually did. Given his brilliant DIY installation, I assume the worst. I'd be looking at the wiring connections inside the heater and inside the panel.

JR

ok, what kind of junction box do I need to use?

can it be same ones as I use for 110V runs - or something special?

Oh yeah, you should definitely get someone to look at that...

:)

http://i.cdn.turner.com/v5cache/TBS/...0420061511.jpg

what has happened is the electrician was rushed to move the wires with limited access beneath so they channeled behind the baseboard to the new location.

you could technically use #14awg but i will bet money the circuit is on a 20A circuit breaker so you have to use 12awg.

the tic tracer (beeper) may not have worked because the 2 legs canceled each other out, try to separate the wires and test again.

the way to fix this is to get a single gang plastic old work box, cut it into the wall and a single gang blank cover, turn off the circuit breaker, pull the wires up into the box and re-run the wire at size 12. make sure to put nail plates over top of the wire if you use the same path, make up a new junction at both ends.

if the existing breaker is 30A, change the breaker to manufactures specs.

you only need to use two wire (three conductor) black/white/ground because the heater doesn't need a neutral

hope this helps

thx - have drilled one hole into the basement room & will do the other, easier hole when I can get time

BTW - the heater has red, black & gnd wires & the original thicker feed cable also has only 3 wires - white, black, gnd.

I'll use 12 AWG for my new 15 ft. run