Wooden floor, any expert in here?

[rnln]

I am thinking about doing the wooden floor on my first floor, concrete. Most people recommend using glue, but my brother wants to lay some tar paper on the bottom first, then nail some 1" plywood to the concrete, before glueing/nail the wooden pieces on the plywood. He is always extra careful when it comes to house. I know that would make it better but is it neccessary? For the extra $ and labor/time, do you think it worth it?

[Scuba Steve]

I've done a gluedown before. It came out more solid than I thought was possible, but the glue is NASTY. I'm surprised he left out the underlayment between the plywood and wood. Anyway what stopped me from going that route is the overall thickness of all that + wood. It was just too much.

[looneybin]

most wood flooring manufacturers won't warranty the floor if it's applied on concrete, due to moisture issues.
you will need to apply a moisture barrier, there is a cold applied, trowel on vapor barrier called "Sonneborn HLM 5000" that works well & the flooring manuf. usually will accept it.

[JavaBrewer]

Depends on the wood product. Engineered wood floors are a glue down install. Solid hardwood floors are a nail down. Engineered has come a long way are are IMO the best product out there. They are pre-finished and many can be refinished down the road 2-3 times. Most newer (10 yrs or less) slabs in Cali are not prone to moisture problems (vapor barrier is put down before the pour) but still a test should be done. Prep is important - slab must be clean. After I demo'd the existing carpet and vinyl flooring I hired out guys using machines and strong chemicals to strip and buff the floor totally clean. Don't skimp on glue - Bostiks Best runs somewhere around $175/5 gal and is the product to use. Yes nasty to work with and figure on tossing all clothing worn by the installer. My floors have been in for years and are as solid as ever.

[trekkor]

Bostik also makes a trowel applied waterproof membrane, too.

If it's an old slab, use that, then engineered wood over slab with the best glue available.


KT

[Zeke]

I've done engineered flooring direct to concrete. I like to do rooms that don't have a lot of exterior wall with planters or otherwise less than hardscape on the other side. I like the idea of cheap vinyl laid on the concrete first and then the wood glued to the vinyl. The reason is that the vinyl will bridge cracks.

However, reading trek's post, sounds like there is another way these days.

[RWebb]

I used some sort of thin membrane between the eng. wood flooring & the concrete. Ripped up the vinyl tile, left the black mastic coat on the concrete - concrete in parts, mastic in parts.

Just rolled the membrane out - taped it together & laid the flooring.

The membrane was esp. for that function - it has 2 layers of solid plastic with a 'crumple' or corrugated or bubble (or something - can you tell I didn't examine it closely?) in between. Flooring co. said it would cushion and quiet the eng. wood flooring.

Adjacent room has Marmoleum with a cork backing and it is nicer to walk on, so...

[rnln]

looneybin, JavaBrewer,
So the vapor barier is applied before glue? I am guessing that applying the vapor barrier first, wait for it to dry then glue and wood pieces?

Milt, RWebb, Scuba Steve
I thought only Laminate can be floating and have a layer (underlayment? or whatever it's called) in between. Engineer wood needs to nail/glue down to the concrete. If you have a layer of vinyl between concrete and wood pieces, and vinyl is not glueing to concrete or not glue to wood pieces, then it's floating then?

I am confused. I visit 3 stores and they all told me same story, which are different from what you guys do (diff from my brother too). It seem like each person is doing his own way? BTW, labor cost include material for laminate is around $1.75, and around $2.10 for engineer. How does that sound? I think if I negotiate, it can be a little less.

[look 171]

The new glue is the vapor barier, all in one. My installers use that all time and have no issues. Still, Plywood shot over felt is by far the safest and try and true method. Height issue is always the problem. Heck, when it comes to stone or tile work, I still demand on floating walls and floors.

[Scuba Steve]

Originally Posted by rnln

looneybin, JavaBrewer,
So the vapor barier is applied before glue? I am guessing that applying the vapor barrier first, wait for it to dry then glue and wood pieces?

Milt, RWebb, Scuba Steve
I thought only Laminate can be floating and have a layer (underlayment? or whatever it's called) in between. Engineer wood needs to nail/glue down to the concrete. If you have a layer of vinyl between concrete and wood pieces, and vinyl is not glueing to concrete or not glue to wood pieces, then it's floating then?

I am confused. I visit 3 stores and they all told me same story, which are different from what you guys do (diff from my brother too). It seem like each person is doing his own way? BTW, labor cost include material for laminate is around $1.75, and around $2.10 for engineer. How does that sound? I think if I negotiate, it can be a little less.

Kahrs engineered can have an underlayment underneath without nailing or gluing anything. It's an approved method for installing the stuff per their instructions. In hindsight I might've looked a bit harder to see whether concrete + moisture barrier + underlayment would've been an approved installation method. The glue was that foul, and once the wood is down it's NOT coming up. My first run was through two rooms connected by a long hallway. From there I built forward which wasn't so bad. The fun began when I had to start building backwards. VERY hard to do because the back side of my last row was glued down and not coming up, so getting the stuff to lock together was a total nightmare.

[sc_rufctr]

I'm considering this option for the family and everyday dinning room in my house.
I have old carpet down that has seen better days. The house is on a concrete slab.

So my question is. What's harder or more time consuming? Ceramic tiles or a wooden floor?

I've done tiles on a few occasions so I now how much work that is.

[Zeke]

What I meant to say is glue the vinyl down and glue the floor to the vinyl. There is glue (adhesive, if you prefer) made for that.

[JavaBrewer]

Originally Posted by sc_rufctr

I'm considering this option for the family and everyday dinning room in my house.
I have old carpet down that has seen better days. The house is on a concrete slab.

So my question is. What's harder or more time consuming? Ceramic tiles or a wooden floor?

I've done tiles on a few occasions so I now how much work that is.

I have installed wood and tile many times. Tile is way more labor intensive - heavy materials and mixing thinset sucks. Tile also requires a wet saw which is messy. Floor prep - for tile over slab - will also be more difficult as you will need some sort of crack isolation membrane. If you go with a natural stone like travertine the installation will be doubly hard but if you know what you're doing it will look fantastic and last longer than the house itself.

[JavaBrewer]

Originally Posted by rnln

looneybin, JavaBrewer,
So the vapor barier is applied before glue? I am guessing that applying the vapor barrier first, wait for it to dry then glue and wood pieces?

Milt, RWebb, Scuba Steve
I thought only Laminate can be floating and have a layer (underlayment? or whatever it's called) in between. Engineer wood needs to nail/glue down to the concrete. If you have a layer of vinyl between concrete and wood pieces, and vinyl is not glueing to concrete or not glue to wood pieces, then it's floating then?

I am confused. I visit 3 stores and they all told me same story, which are different from what you guys do (diff from my brother too). It seem like each person is doing his own way? BTW, labor cost include material for laminate is around $1.75, and around $2.10 for engineer. How does that sound? I think if I negotiate, it can be a little less.

The Bostik glue works as a moisture barrier but if your slab has a moisture problem then you would need to seek out a specialty product. Some flooring centers insist their wood installers glue down a cheap vinyl floor over the clean slab and then glue the wood to the vinyl. However I have seen a few instances in that install where the vinyl floor glue let go in small patches and the floor would depress slightly when stepped on - annoying.

I think a glue down wood floor install goes for $3.00 in my parts but that does not include floor prep/demo.

[RWebb]

Kahrs Engineered wood is what I used -- it is in fact a laminate (nice wood is laminated on top of a dimensionally accurate soft wood of some type (birch?))

but it is not a laminate of some photo of vinyl (I hate that stuff)

Is there a flooring store that can advise you in your area? Winters a re mild here, so you may need some other technique.

also call the manf. repr. & it never hurts to read all their technical info carefully...

[rnln]

umm... how do I know if my floor has moisture or not? It had the old laminate floor. When I pulled them off, there was a layer of very thin foam. The concrete has the black stuff like asphalt. While working on repairing drywall and such, I made the floor really dirty now. I know for sure I can't clean that black stuff any more. What is the best way of removing that black asphalt like thing? Paint thinner?

RWebb,
there are lot of stores and I already visit several. I ask here because I know there are many people here do things much better than the usual installer out there. All stores are telling me to simply glue wood down to concrete, and float technique on laminate.

[Scuba Steve]

Advice that I've gotten has varied widely. One place that I talked to recommended gluing down 3/4" tongue and groove flooring! Nevermind that the manufacturer specifically says not to do that with their product...

[JavaBrewer]

Originally Posted by rnln

umm... how do I know if my floor has moisture or not? It had the old laminate floor. When I pulled them off, there was a layer of very thin foam. The concrete has the black stuff like asphalt. While working on repairing drywall and such, I made the floor really dirty now. I know for sure I can't clean that black stuff any more. What is the best way of removing that black asphalt like thing? Paint thinner?

RWebb,
there are lot of stores and I already visit several. I ask here because I know there are many people here do things much better than the usual installer out there. All stores are telling me to simply glue wood down to concrete, and float technique on laminate.

First off that black stuff (I had tar paper under old tile), all dirt, old adhesives, all of it...needs to be completely removed. I demo'd my own floors and installed wood but I hired out a team of guys to clean/grind/strip the floor to virgin slab.

You're also going to need to verify the floor has no low spots that will need to be filled. Simple test for moisture is to tape a 3'x3' piece of plastic sheeting to the floor for a day or two. If it pulls back moist then you have an issue.

How many sq/ft are you talking about?

[RWebb]

all concrete slab has moisture

why does he have to remove the black mastic??

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by RWebb

all concrete slab has moisture

why does he have to remove the black mastic??

Might be uneven.