How It's Done @ 1,000 Yards
 

Here is a good video showing the target pits and their operation at a typical rifle range. Most folks don't get the chance to shoot at long range all that often, if at all. The logistics of it are far different than shooting at 100, 200 or possibly 300 yards at the typical gun club. The shorter ranges allow one to spot his own shots, as the bullet holes are readily seen at those ranges. Not so once we start shooting at longer ranges. This require a cooperative effort between a man in the pits and the man on the line.

Notice the target puller is placing two disks on the target. One goes in the actually bullet hole, the other denotes the score value of the shot. The first shot is a "10" up at 12:00, as indicated by the white disc in the bullet hole and the black one down at 6:00 on the border of the target. After a sight correction, the next shot is an "X" as indicated by the white spotter in the bullet hole and the black one in the lower left corner of the border.

The score indicator positions on the border are "5" at 9:00, "6" in the upper left corner, a miss at 12:00, "7" in the upper right corner, "8" at 3:00, "9" in the lower right corner, "10" at 6:00, and "X" in the lower left corner.

Check out the time of flight of the .50 BMG round at about 2,700-2,800 fps muzzle velocity. Our black powder rounds start out at only 1,200 or so, and drop into the 800's by 1,000 yards. You can actually fire, half cock the hammer, drop the breach block, extract the shell, and put it back in the box before the bullet impacts. Fun stuff...

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always fun to be in the pits! NOT! like the railroad ties for protection. thats a damn nice range. well set up.


that 1st shot outta that .50 wasnt too damn shabby. hell i would have left the damn zero alone!

That's cool. Thanks for posting.

That a military range? The state shut down .50 at my rifle club...noise regulations.

That's quite interesting. It wasn't a very flat trajectory on the .50BMG. I wonder how a .338 Lapua would compair. A friend used to be an Army Corps (school boys who intend to join the military) and he used to work in the pits. He said it was pretty weird having bullets whistling over your head. and sometimes hitting the pole he put up to mark the targets.

The .50bmg is a fun gun to shoot....

Thanks for posting this!

And here I've been thinking of an old laptop and a webcam to put near a target at 200 yards to see 22 holes...

The .50 BMG actually shoots flatter than the .338 Lapua at long range. Muzzle velocities are about the same with their standard bullet weights, but the .50 BMG's bullets have a higher ballistic coefficient. The intent of the .338 Lapua is to have a lighter, more portable platform when less power is required. Most shots with the .50 BMG are taken at "hard" targets, not personel. The .338 Lapua is plenty as an anti-personel round at long range.

The thing I notice about these pits is the lack of a roof over the target pullers' heads. While there is no danger of getting hit by a bullet without a roof, it can still get pretty exciting when one impacts short. I've had what I swear was a full wheelbarrow full of dirt and gravel poured down over me from short rounds. The only thing keeping it off my head was the roof over it.

Please "splain" more this ballistic coeficient thing.
Newton told me that all objects fall at the same rate (in a vacuum) regardless of mass, so both bullets should fall the exact same distance over the same time and if they have the same muzzle velocities they'd have identical rates of drop, unless one slows down quicker.
Is it that the heavier bullet maintains it's velocity longer than the lighter one?
That would make sense... ..

bullets aren't fired in a vacuum.

golf balls have dimples for a reason, they go farther.

from wikipedia

You got it, Sammy. Ballistic coefficient is a variable used in the calculation of deceleration. The higher the number, the less the object decelerates.

It's kind of an inexact number, because it does vary with velocity. In other words, certain shapes have higher ballistic coefficients through certain velocity ranges than other shapes, but then the other shapes do better at other velocities. The ballistic coefficient of any given object actually varies a great deal as it decelerates. The hard number assigned for deceleration calculations is merely an "average" number over the projected range and time of flight.

BC's are calculated from the sectional density (ratio of diameter to weight) of the projectile and a "form factor" taken from tables for this purpose. A value of "1" has been arbitrarily assigned to a specific shape (it's some theoretical artillary projectile, but I can't remember much more off hand). Pretty much all small arms projectiles fall somewhere less than this theoretical "1". For example, a typical 180 grain .30 caliber hunting bullet may be down somewhere around .300. The highest numbers typically seen in sporting rifle ammunition are up to .400 to .500. Stubby little handgun bullets can go down to .100. Bullets used for long range in the .338 Lapua may go up into the .600's, with the .50 BMG exceeding that.

Jeff,
I've played that game too...Black Powder Cartridge...and it's really a hoot. I had to quit due to shoulder arthritis but had fun doing it. We would have two in the pits per target for speed of processing the hits. I started with a Ballard 45/90 but later a bunch of us went to a 38-70 which was more accurate and less prone to wind deflection. We abandoned the blow tube in favor of swabbing the bbl after each shot.

Since we were shooting BP cartridge we had no optics on the rifle...just a very good/precise Soule (ladder type) sight.

The RR ties are only a retaining wall for the full berm behind them....not unsafe at all.

Christmas..i have an "appointment" with EP swat. they are gonna let me shoot a .50 and a Lapua. i gonna try the long shots.

Drop - 9.8m/s^2 - not just an idea, but the law.

So they all drop at the same speed. Higher BC will enable a projectile to maintain velocity better (and be less affected by wind drift). So say you have 2 calibers, one throwing a bullet with a BC of .300 and one throwing bullet with a BC of .100, both leaving the barrel at 2000 FPS. The bullet with the higher BC will retain more of its velocity, so it will shoot flatter.

But they all drop at 9.8m/s^2

That's not true. That's just the gravitational acceleration. Wind resistance will also affect the rate at which they fall.
The difference between two different bullets may be small, or even immeasurable, but there is still a difference.

Strange things happen with exterior ballistics. Much of it is a bit unpredictable. For instance, when dealing with bullet drop, the one variable most difficult to account for is lift. Some bullet shapes, at some velocities, actually pitch up, creating a high pressure zone right under the nose and a low pressure zone right above it, generating lift. Artillery ballisticians lose a great deal of sleep over this one; they need their projectiles to "tip over" at their apogee so that the nose hits first. That's where the detonator lives. Some bullet designs, at some velocities, never "tip over", and kind of "kite" after their apogees, essentially landing like an airliner, nose high. When the tip strikes first (like on a more or less vertical target), this leads to all kinds of wild tumbling, which is what the military would like to see in its anti-personnel rounds. The difference in trajectory between otherwise similar projectiles at similar velocities, the only difference being one "tips over" and the other does not is significant.

To make things even more interesting, bullets will appear to "roll" in the direction of the rifling. A right hand twist barrel will appear to "roll" bullets to the right, where a left hand twist barrel will appear to "roll" them the other way. The reason for this is that the pitch up will also have a bit of a horizontal component, or yaw, induced by the spinning bullet. RH twists will yaw the bullet right, creating a high pressure area on the left side of the nose, and a low pressure area on the right, drawing the bullet into that low pressure area.

And yes, while acceleration is constant in a vacuum, there will always be a whole lotta air between you and a 1,000 yard target. Therein lies the challenge...

Jeff

We always looked for and hoped for round holes in the target. Bullets that don't tip over leave oval looking holes. That was one advantage of our Paul Jones mould cast 38-70 bullet. This bullet also had narrow and shallow grease grooves which aided the ballistics greatly....nice round holes punched in the paper. Perhaps you have heard of Dan Theodore...he designed that bullet and many others which are proven winners.

After working the pits a while you could really almost call the score by looking at where the bullet hit the berm behind the target....fun stuff.

heres the real score for long range shooting. either yer GOOD or your going to be very DEAD if yer playing war.


generally NOBODY likes a sniper. they are very pesky and demoralizzzzzz-ing. and it HURTS ALOT!


granted technology has done alot for long range shootin, but after watching the COUNTLESS sniper shows, since now each squad demands a DM(designated marksmen-hint every marine is a DM), i have come to the conclusion with all the lap top crap/calculators/note pads blah blah that once again we have taken something and COMPLETELY BEFOULED the entire process to the point of NOT getting the shot off SOON ENOUGH to change the course of battle.


heres what ya need and yeah im old school, so feeking what..............



1) quality weapon .308,.300 win mag, .30.06, .338 win mag or lapua, .50

2) pair quality binos

3) quality range finder to 1200 yds, spendy if for a 50 cal as obviously it goes farther downrange. this is the only techno part to come along for years

4) quality optic w/target knobs 1/4 MOA increments

5) quality federal ammo

6) your come ups plastered on inside of butt stock

7) a damn good understanding of your ballistics with that particular round

8) a damn good understanding of wind at range

9) a hell of alot of ammo to practice



now.....................since the civil war what has really changed for snipers. not a hell of alot except quality optics. how bout since wwi? or wwii ? or vietnam? yep the only thing is the laser(lazer) range finder. yeah sure we have gone from a mini ball to a boat tail hollow point.........more efficient.



so with that in mind, and knowing something about SHOOT AND SCOOT, cuz when ya shoot ya better scoot cuz the enemy is gonna rain hell onto your position, why in hells name do we train GI's to go thru all these calculations,carry all this laptop crap, to the point that many sniper rifles are NOT coming with iron sights as backups in the event of scope failure. and yes they DO FAIL ask me how i know.


so what we are creating is a shooter that relies on technology and as any of us old farts know technology WILL always fail when ya need it most.


thats my gripe, most cant shoot period w/out technology.


cheese and rice we have shot countless rounds(attested by wooden ammo cases of empty brass) over the years IRON SIGHTED and thats how snipers should be trained in MY MORE THAN HUMBLE OPINION! but WTF do i know?


i KNOW i can hit a 1000yds IRON SIGHTED! all day every day and night windy rainey snowy. because thats how we roll and thats how we were taught.


there NEVER WILL BE A SPOON I OWN W/AN OPTIC WITHOUT IRON SIGHTS as a backup!


on a brand new remington custom shop model 700 or 7 YOU have to SPECIAL ORDER IRON SIGHTS NOW! same with any custom rifle mfg.


now let me ask you this????????? why do african dangerous game rifles come with IRON SIGHTS????????

Oh yeah, I remember Dan Theodore from the old BPCR board on Shooters.com before it went under. He created a great deal of controversy with his development of the .38 as a long range caliber. It's been awhile, but from what I recall he had unearthed some rather dubiously pedigreed .38 that may or may not have been historically correct and, therefor, legal. He was into boat tailed bullets, claiming there were "historically correct" as well, again citing some rather dubious sources. Classic gamesman, looking for every mechanical or equipment advantage he could.

BPCR was alway supposed to be a haven from those folks, who managed to ruin so many shooting games. "Practical" pistol is now anything but, "hunters'" silhouette became anything but (but is fighting back), and on and on. BPCR has always had "match director's discretion" over the "spirit of the rules". If I remember correctly, Mr. Theodore lost a lot of those arguments and eventually took his ball and went home. There are certainly places for what he was doing, but one of those places was never on the firing line at a match with other shooters trying to emulate a specific era. He never seemed to understand that.

Real African dangerous game rifles come with iron sights because they are meant for close in work. Period.

They have iron sights for that reason and that reason only. All of your ranting above is inapplicable to your question.

I have a 50 BMG it is expensive to shoot but its alot of fun. I will try to post a picture later

here is mine..just got it out to take this pic

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288215139.jpg

I know nothing... NOTHING...

Living in the big bad city where it is over an hour drive to get to somewhere you can fire a high power rife I know very little about such things.

However I LOVE reading about ballistics and these threads about long range shooting (especially Jeff's posts).

On a similar note I love the bicycle threads where you guys go on for pages about every nuance of a high tech bicycle. Whereas after ten miles on my Schwinn I'm winded and ready for a hot shower and a cold beer. :D

hell im just gonna sell my (2) safes full of spoons and take r2d2esq along and HE can shoot everything i wanna shoot for the rest of my life.



r2d2esq , what the hell is it LIKE walking on water like you do?

Well, it should be obvious that owning something and understanding something is entirely different. But, apparently not to you.

If you think that your logic was correct in your sniper rifle diatribe that ended with the African dangerous game rifle question, then lay out the logic path.

After you fail at doing that, then answer this question.

oddnutjob, what the hell is it LIKE being as ignorant as you are?

[QUOTE=RPKESQ;5639809]Well, it should be obvious that owning something and understanding something is entirely different. But, apparently not to you.

If you think that your logic was correct in your sniper rifle diatribe that ended with the African dangerous game rifle question, then lay out the logic path.

After you fail at doing that, then answer this question.

oddnutjob, what the hell is it LIKE being as ignorant as you are?[/QUOTE


r2d2esq...............my ignorance comes from literally crates of empty wooden ammo boxes of spent shells and personally knowing mike dillon and machining his reloaders, knowing personally rock mcmillian who aside from custom rifles has (20) CNC machines building dillons mini gun parts, and knowing dick davies the prod. mgr at mcmillian who has built (2) of my rifles(M40-A1 and M-70 .338) and (2) of my stocks.


now considering i sold them quite a few $$$$ in precision tooling , had my rifles and stocks built there, i kinda have a real glimpse of what goes in, and what comes out of there. and every african game rifle has IRON SIGHTS and a 1 X 4 or 6 scope with QD(thats quick detachable) scope mounts in the event of a scope failure.


now all i was saying in my "diatribe" is most CLOWNS like YOURSELF rely on technology to shoot at distance. but for those of us who were TAUGHT correctly, you must 1st master your iron sights out to 1000 yds before learning your "come-ups" with a scope.


now considering i have (3) 1000yd spoons and i know im a hell of alot older and wiser than you and have been doing this since i was 18.....................


its obvious to me and the world..................YOU couldnt hit the broad side of a BARN let alone a donkeys ASS(you) at 1000yds with a freeking HOWITZER!



hmmm why is every alaskan rifle built with iron sights and a 1X4 or 6 scope with QD scope mounts also????? be it bolt, be it semi, be it lever action.



cheese and rice r2d2esq do you hunt with king louis the "sun king", or donald duck and GOOFY?



do you like wear "pant a-loons" and frilly sleeved shirts when you hunt?


do you wear WIGS?


do you wear shoes with buckles on them?


do you like have a frog speaking EUNUCH that hands you the (1) bullet as the mighty cape buffalo charges you? do you like hunt with .500 NITRO's?


or do YOU just sit there and pull on yer puny lil french pud and start crap here every chance ya GET!



did your boy beeeattch "MONTE" tell you to ONLY hunt dangerous game with sights or without sights? with a scope or without a scope?



you really really really REALLY NEED TO GET OUT OF THAT DARK ROOM illuminated by only your puter screen and see what the world is all about and how us ignorant hillbillys can OUTSHOOT "those who walk on water with SUN KINGS."



your a joke and a stroke.

RPKESQ is correct on the iron sights though.

The term "iron sights" covers an awful lot of territory. Match sights suitable for leisurely 1,000 yard work are far, far different from open "express" sights meant for fast 50 yard work. These two purposes reside at polar opposite ends of the "iron sight" spectrum. One could no more hunt with long range match sights than one could compete at long range with express sights. There are a good many designs that fall somewhere in between, being useful for both hunting and informal, closer range target shooting.

Forgive me.
Iron sights on large caliber dangerous game rifles.

Oh no, that wasn't directed at you - I was actually agreeing with you, and Richard, and Chuck. Everyone is right about the particular iron sights they were referring to.

My shooting has actually come full circle with regards to my sight preferences. I started out learning on irons, just because my mentors all thought that was important. They all thought "anyone can shoot with a scope" (they were wrong, of course) and that the fundamentals were best learned with irons. After "growing up" and graduating to scopes for most uses, I have now returned to irons for the vast majority of my shooting.

The scopes that do remain in the inventory are pretty much all 1.5 to 4 power or fixed 2 power. The rifles that they are set up for typically don't wear them, although they can be re-mounted in a pinch. I have one "varmint" scope, a 6.5 to 20 power, mounted on a custom #1 in .220 Swift, that must stay on the rifle, which lacks irons. Pretty much everything else is shot with irons all of the time.

I can't shoot as small of groups with irons as I can with scopes. Once load development is over, however, that point becomes entirely moot. I can hit from field positions just as well, just as quickly at ethical hunting ranges as I can with a scope. Huge bonuses are a rifle that is far easier to carry, far less prone to damage, and there is no glass to collect rain drops or fog up in our Northwest climate.

Those of you who scope everything should give irons a shot (pun intended...). As mentioned earlier, there are irons for every purpose, and many that fill several roles. I particularly like the XS Sight Systems "ghost ring" peep sights for general field use. Give it a try - you might be surprised how well you can shoot.



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1288234997.jpg

Love ghost rings.
I also developed quite an affinity for a williams blade sight on an XP 100 7mmBR. Really fun to 200m (the limit of my vision) off of a modified Creedmore.

I have the Williams (and Lyman) peep sights on a couple of rifles. They are a little more versatile than the XS, in that the aperture can be left in for fine work in good light, or taken out, making for a great "ghost ring" setup for hunting in the woods in dim light.

thanks guys, I learned something! Cool