Water heater dilemma

[Scott R]

What has to happen to the gas line? I have two x 50 gallon now and we want to replace with one tankless for efficiency reasons. What has to change? Currently both of the 50's are plumbed into the same tree as the furnace, which also supplies the furnace in my garage. Only the third story furnace has it's own line. Am I looking at major gas line renovations?

[vash]

scott.

as i understand it, the water heater needs a dedicated gas line. that's all.

i had issues at my home, so i opted for an external Rinnai. it is small and is mounted near my gas and electrical meter. i saved alot of money in elec, gas plumbing, and the SS exhaust ducting. it works like a champ!

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by GH85Carrera

I looked into a tankless system. The first problem is replacing the gas line for a BIG line. The water heater & installation was going to have a payback of about 40 years. No tanks!

.

Shhhhh! They don't wanna hear that!

[billybek]

Never replace anything that doesn't need replacing....
If the appliance is at the end of it's life cycle then the payback becomes a little better.

[fred cook]

I had the exact same problem a few months ago with a house that I was trying to sell. I believe the problem lies with the w/h location in the same room with the furnace. When the furnace blower comes on, it creates a slightly lower pressure which causes carbon monoxide to not travel up the vent as desired. The simplest, least expensive "fix" is to extend the air intake or cold air return as far away from the funace as possible, preferably in another room. Hope this helps.

[cgarr]

Originally Posted by tabs

Who needs a Hot Water Heater???

Thats right! Why do you need to heat hot water?

So they say you get a 50 degree rise in temp so if your water going in is at 50 the best you can get out is only 100??

[imcarthur]

It makes no economic sense to deep six a working & volume sufficient hot water heater. If you have to change due to equipment failure or a need to reclaim floor space or in new construction, it is worth considering a tankless system - even though it has a dubiously long potential payback period.

Of course, looking at it another way, I could turn on my hot water & it will continuously run scaldingly hot (140 degrees) until:

a) Lake Ontario runs dry
b) Alberta runs out of natural gas
c) I go broke from the bills

Ian

[Brian 162]

Tankless heaters according to Consumers Report will pay for itself in 20 years. When I took the Rinnai training a few years ago if you wanted to keep the warranty valid the heat exchanger has to be flushed once a year. (You can see the connections in Ian's picture.)
I'm not a fan of these.
I know I'm in the minority but I'll stick to my basic 60 gallon gas water heater.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Evans, Marv

P.S. I don't know how long they last, but I've talked to people who have had them for a long time - just don't remember how long. Since they heat the water by circulating it through a heat exchanger, you can't have hard water that will build up mineral deposits. Of course that shortens the life of a tank water heater too.

Marv, there's a product not many people have heard about call Aqua-Rex. It work so well that the hard water deposit will fall off at the tip of your faucet in the next two months after you install it. It is a little thing that plugs into the socket. They have using it in England for years. I have had my little unit up for over a years and have no problems. No more hard water issues. I have put in about 7 Aqua-Rex units for various clients. They all love the product. The architect and I are pushing it because hard water means sooner death for tankless units. That makes me look bad. Kills two birds with one stone.

Steve, the other alternative is to install a filter. I think changing filter is a PITA. I am certify by Nortz to install their products but I really like Takagi. They are the best , in my opinion. All Japenese made with Japanese parts. The Lexus of Tank less heaters.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Scott R

What has to happen to the gas line? I have two x 50 gallon now and we want to replace with one tankless for efficiency reasons. What has to change? Currently both of the 50's are plumbed into the same tree as the furnace, which also supplies the furnace in my garage. Only the third story furnace has it's own line. Am I looking at major gas line renovations?

Scott, be careful with an extra unit. If better to run 2 smaller units then one big one. It sounds like you have a big home. You might have to run a recirc. pump if you are installation only one unit.

[look 171]

I will be the first to tell me clients that they are not saving any money with a tank less unit. it will take over 20 years to break even. But, that's not why they should install a tank less unit. As a matter of fact, it is to waste more water. This way, one can take a longer hot shower and fill the Jacuzzi tub more often because it never run out of hot water. Ever try filing a monster tub with a regular tank heater? A tank less heater is a must when I install a big tub in their Master bath.

Jeff

[cantdrv55]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'll let you know what I end up getting tomorrow and will take a pick. The tankless this plumbing outfit carries in not the rinnai though.

[imcarthur]

If you do go tankless, make sure that they install the flush valves. As above, an annual flush is required. A 3/1 water/vinegar solution is run through the unit for 1 hour. I plan on doing my own flush.



Ian

[Deschodt]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

Shhhhh! They don't wanna hear that!

This is not a religious or political issue, it's simple economics and situational awareness... If you don't see the logic, then you don't have to do it.

I just want to point out that 2 of my neighbors within the space of a week had their tank rupture, and it cost one of them over 10K in wood floor and drywall repair.

My tank was 10+ y old and upstairs, and on the right side of house for the gas /water line, so it was a no brainer to go tankless. The freed up space got my wife another closet, I avoided any potential flooding problem, my electrical bill went down a little and I have more and cleaner hot water.

My cost was $2200 and change, my power company already refunded me $500 under their green program, and I believe I'll have that Tax credit of $1500 to apply to the $1000 of labor, so my final cost will be no more than a new conventional tank... Again, why not ?

By the same token, I have another tank downstairs, and it made no sense to replace that one - too far form the gas line, it's in the garage, let it blow. It's all logic. I would not replace a new tank. I would replace an old one if the stars are aligned.

[look 171]

Again, you don't get these heaters because you want to be green or save a buck. In this case half a penny if you are lucky. It is the luxury of having endless hot showers or baths. I am the last guy sho is PC or green. I might make a lot more money selling the green crap to people but I don't. We drill out 1.6GPM (Now even lower, I think is 1.2ish per code) shower head restriction units to 1000GPM. I have taken people's money and never want my clients to take a shower in their muti shower head Master Bath in mist. They did not pay me to get spit on unless they want to. Most don't. For you old dogs who are against and fight these heaters, think about it this way for a minute and you may change your tune.

Jeff

[look 171]

Originally Posted by imcarthur

If you do go tankless, make sure that they install the flush valves. As above, an annual flush is required. A 3/1 water/vinegar solution is run through the unit for 1 hour. I plan on doing my own flush.



Ian

Look at Aqua-Rex. There is no filter to change, your unit is clean like day one. check it out. I just got my old client to swap out their old 50 gallon heater dedicated to their huge Jacuzzi tub (We put in that bath 6 years ago) to change over to a little Takagi tank less unit with Aqua Rex in about 10 minutes talking over a cup of coffee.

[Green 912]

Originally Posted by Deschodt

This is not a religious or political issue, it's simple economics and situational awareness... If you don't see the logic, then you don't have to do it.

I just want to point out that 2 of my neighbors within the space of a week had their tank rupture, and it cost one of them over 10K in wood floor and drywall repair.

My tank was 10+ y old and upstairs, and on the right side of house for the gas /water line, so it was a no brainer to go tankless. The freed up space got my wife another closet, I avoided any potential flooding problem, my electrical bill went down a little and I have more and cleaner hot water.

My cost was $2200 and change, my power company already refunded me $500 under their green program, and I believe I'll have that Tax credit of $1500 to apply to the $1000 of labor, so my final cost will be no more than a new conventional tank... Again, why not ?

By the same token, I have another tank downstairs, and it made no sense to replace that one - too far form the gas line, it's in the garage, let it blow. It's all logic. I would not replace a new tank. I would replace an old one if the stars are aligned.

Logic and reality dictate that tankless heaters leak too. Tank type heaters can be set in catch pans with lines to the floor drain that have alarms to let you know if there is water leaking. Leak but no flood. As said with present day tankless heaters you get a machine that is far more likely to fail and that will end up costing you more money as it will not live to the ROI point. MTBF is much higher for tankless than conventional heaters. Endless hot right up to the point when it quits for some reason or another. Then you are looking at no hot water and a $$$ repair bill for a control board that the tank types doesn't even need.

Going from electric to gas is a good thing.

[look 171]

Originally Posted by Green 912

Logic and reality dictate that tankless heaters leak too. Tank type heaters can be set in catch pans with lines to the floor drain that have alarms to let you know if there is water leaking. Leak but no flood. As said with present day tankless heaters you get a machine that is far more likely to fail and that will end up costing you more money as it will not live to the ROI point. MTBF is much higher for tankless than conventional heaters. Endless hot right up to the point when it quits for some reason or another. Then you are looking at no hot water and a $$$ repair bill for a control board that the tank types doesn't even need.

Going from electric to gas is a good thing.

I have always tell people to put them outside. Cheaper to install and the repair man do not have to go through the house and dirty it up. do you have fact to back up the MTBF you are talking? I installed my first heater about 12 years ago for a client. Three years ago, I built their study for them and the heater was still there. They have not complain about it and I can only assume it is still going.

What would yo rather have, a 50 gal water leaking or a tank-less unit leaking? I think they are both are just as bad. I think I will take the tankless leaking outside.