Question for the 1911 Spoon guys

[azasadny]

Gentleman (and ladies),

I have a "new in box" Colt 1911 slide and I'm thinking about a project for me and my son and we would build a 1911 pistol "from scratch" and wanted to find out how feasible this is. This wouldn't be a fancy-schmansy rail gun, just a 1911 to take to the range. The slide I have is a standard blued slide from a commercial model Colt and it's the same size as the M1911A1 slide. I have a MidwayUSA catalog and I thought I'd start by listing the parts I need, pricing them out and determine if we want to do this. I am not a gunsmith and have rudimentary mechanical skills, but I do reload my own ammo with excellent results, I might add. I figure if we get really stuck, I could find a local gunsmith to help us out, but I'd like to try and build a 1911 without help, if that's possible. I have 2 M1911A1's to use as "examples", so that should help us.

What do you think? Is this a reasonable project to attempt? Thanks!

[targa911S]

Yes Art, but as with any other project like that it will cost you more in the end. 1911 are pretty simple compared to yer 51. LOL. Most military weapons are made so any dufus can put them together.

[azasadny]

David,
Thanks, that's what I thought. I'll send you a PM with my address. I need your address to ship the Model 51 "spoon" as it's covered by my C&R FFL. Thanks!

[azasadny]

I really want to do something with this Colt slide I have. It's never been on a gun and looks like it was not properly marked with the roll press, as the Colt logo is barely visible. There is a"G" proofmark on the inslide of the slide and a "RA" mark at the rear, where the firing pin cover goes.

[tabs]

Colt in the 1930's built a few 45 Slides to use as conversions for the Colt Ace from 22 to 45. If you have one of those it is called having BANK. So before you muck about make sure of what U have.

[RPKESQ]

Nothing to worry about. Typical Colt quality control. After all, just look at the M16 fiasco from '64 to '70.

1911 are simple devices. As long as you carefully test the final assembly with single load magazines and work up an additional round at a time to ensure a safe trigger, sear, safety configuration, you should have little difficulty.

[on2wheels52]

"Typical Colt quality control. After all, just look at the M16 fiasco from '64 to '70."

I think the M16 story takes a few more words than that to explain.
Jim

[Jim Bremner]

get a 80% frame and build a paperless one!

[targa911S]

Originally Posted by tabs

Colt in the 1930's built a few 45 Slides to use as conversions for the Colt Ace from 22 to 45. If you have one of those it is called having BANK. So before you muck about make sure of what U have.

Pay attention to Tabs. He 's right. Do yer homework. I think it was to convert a 45 to a 22 though.

[azasadny]

Thanks guys, I've seen my friend's Ace and Service Ace and this slide isn't one of those, it's a Colt commercial slide from 1918 with no markings on the right side of it. The "rampant Colt" is hardly visible at all, so the roll press didn't quite do it's job and the slide probably failed inspection due to that and was a "lunchbox special" and left the factory.

What's an "80% frame"?

[Rick V]

Originally Posted by targa911S

so any dufus can put them together.

I think you were just called a dufus.

[azasadny]

Rick,
I've been called much worse!

[targa911S]

No I did not call Art a dufus. It was a general statement, meaning no disrespect to anyone. But military guns are made to be simple.

[Jim Bremner]

A 80% frame is sold requiring you to machine 20% of the work in order to make it a Firearm. It's like a paper weight.


Who has Colt 1911 60%-80% decorator frames? - Practical Machinist - Largest Manufacturing Technology Forum on the Web

[MotoSook]

The thing about the frame is you need special tools to get the rails right so the slide and frame fit within the tolerances you want. You risk cracking the frame if you are not careful.

Maybe you should consider buying the frame from a shop that you can send the slide to (no FFL needed) and have them fit the slide on the frame before they ship it to you. This particular excercise (fitting the frame/slide), isn't the "zen" of building a 1911 IMO. It's the fine detail work to fit all the other pieces and making them work well together that make building a 1911 interesting.

Fusion will sell you a frame and fit it to your slide. They have several designs of frames you can choose from. You can also buy a barrel from them and have them fit the barrel and bushing to the slide. It all depends on how much you want them to do. I found their prices for frames and barrels was very competitive.

I would then buy the other smaller parts from Wilson or Ed Brown, etc.

Get the Kuhnhausen manual, "The Colt .45 Automatic: A Shop Manual Volume 1" Book by Jerry Kuhnhausen - MidwayUSA

Just Vol 1 will do. I'm an engineer and I like to see drawings and numbers, so I got Vol 2. Not really required, but I like it.

Get a good set of small files. Actually I just got a couple of small sets from Harbor freight and they work great. Cheap and useful.

You'll need a few other tools specific to the build (plunger tube tool, gunsmith block 0but 2x4 with holes drilled works well too, dremel + attachments), but they aren't that expensive. You will end up spending more in the end than buying a Springfield GI, but the excercise is good for the soul if you like mechanical things and like to work with your hands.

Get some stones for the sear and hammer.

Search for 'nuttinfancy's" Youtube video from his visit to the gunsmith. Good quick video of what you're in for with the sear and hammer. Not too scary.

Just remember, this is a firearm. If you are not confident of your ability, you must farm it out. This is not like fixing a 1911 where your screw up may just mean a trip to the mechanic....

[targa911S]

Well said my friend, well said!

[enzo1]

[2.70Racer]

Like the Pelican Parts Forum, there is a 1911 Forum with a sub forum that discusses 1911 gunsmithing. There are posts that discuss building 1911's from scratch. I would take advantage of the knowledge shared in that site to decide if this is the type of thing you would like to pursue.
The Kuhnhausen books (volume 1 & 2) are as close to the "Bible" of 1911 smithing as I've seen.
The key to always remember, is each part of a 1911 is hand fitted, the pistol is not simply assembled.
Additionally there are a few things that require a mill and tooling. Specifically milling the slide for front and rear sights.
Fitting the slide to a frame is drudgery and easy to screw up. Patience and continous measuring is your friend here.

Fitting a barrel is less drudgery but a great deal of finesse. You really need to know ahead of time how the barrel is to be fit and the steps to accomplish fitting. There are drop in barrels available but even these need some fitting.
Even the front barrel bushing will require fitting. Loose drop in parts here make for less accuracy.

Fitting an extractor requires some kowledge to get it right. Again not a drop in part.

The firing pin stop although a simple part is best done from an oversize part and fit to the pistol. This to properly hold the extractor and prevent extractor clocking.

A special tool is needed to attach the plunger tube. The plunger tube is integral with an STI frame.

The hammer, sear, disconnector and sear spring along with the main spring housing, spring retainer, hammer strut and thumb safety all require an intimate knowledge of how these parts interact with each other. High quality parts are your best friend here. Even the sear pin and hammer pin are best hand fit for precise assembly. A sear jig and stones may be required to finish the tip of the sear.

An understanding of the geometry of the hammer sear relationship is a must for a safe pistol.

Avoid the temptation to lighten the trigger until your experience and knowledge in this area are complete. Any mistakes in this area can result in a pistol firing accidently and even going full auto.

Finally your local 1911 qualified gunsmith is your best friend. He can recommend the better parts
and how best to fit these parts. Absolutely necessary is for your local 1911 qualified gunsmith to do a complete safety check before any attempt to fire.

I recently finished a build using a Colt slide on an STI frame. After 25 years messing around with 1911's and the last couple years studying every single 1911 part and dimension, becoming absolutely confident of the requirements of a build.
The build and shake down afterwards have been very therapeutic. I see another 1911 build in my future, it is as much fun as building and racing my 911 Porsche, without laying on a cold garage floor. Good Luck,

[MotoSook]

it is as much fun as buiding and racing my 911 Porsche, without laying on a cold garage floor

Precisely! And less costly.

[dhoward]

Don't let these guys scare you off. It's not rocket science to build a nice, reliable 1911. Balancing bullet type, accuracy, and reliability is where some of the voodoo is required.