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anyone ever see a spoon defaced like this before?
This is my friend's Manurhin manufactured Walther PP. The defaced slide and grip completely remove any reference to "Walther" and they experts on the Walther forum told me this was done because of a contractual dispute between Manurhin and Walther. Apparently, Manurhin manufactured the pistols for Walther and then a contractual dispute caused Walther to demand that Manurhin not sell any more guns with the Walther name on them, so the factory removed the Walther markings. I've never heard of such a thing and find it difficult to believe that any firearm company would sell a gun that has been defaced like this. Why would anyone buy a gun that was defaced like this? It's now a "shooter" because it certainly doesn't have any value as a collectible, what a shame!
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1297445522.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1297445586.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1297445644.jpg Sure, the grips could be replaced for $50, but the slide is horribly damaged and I don't think it could be fixed. A replacement slide would be at least $200, which is more than the Walther is worth. A guy on the Walther forums suggested that I carefully cold blue the damaged portion of the slide. What do you guys think? Besides that obvious defacement, the gun is in really nice shape and shoot well. I need to get a few mags for it, as my friend lost them (how does that even happen?). Thanks! |
Am guessing that this could have been a German Police weapon (they used this model for undercover work) and the owner at one time did not want the police markings on the gun, so took them off. Have seen this done numerous times with former police guns in Germany.
Agree with you that they did a terrible thing. Would just blue it and have it for a shooter. |
a dressed up hoe with a title..
is still a hoe.. don't care about the clothes or title... does she deliver.. make you smile.. Rika |
Rika,
I think I understand your message. I like the gun and it shoots well, but I'd like to try and make the gun look a little better, or more like it looked prior to someone defacing it like this. Besides the damage indicated, the gun is in great shape and has almost 100% of the bluing intact. |
Joe,
Your theory was also brought up on the Walther forums, so it very well could be the case. I just cannot understand why anyone would do this to a Walther PP. It's like putting a small block Chevy engine in a Porsche 911... sacrilege... |
Based on my complete lack of knowledge in this area, I say BS.
Try reading these: The 'Manurhin myth' explained - WaltherForums PPK/s DOB - WaltherForums It sounds to me like no Manurhin made guns bore the Walther banner. Ever. And this: http://smith-wessonforum.com/lounge/171770-walther-ppk-need-some-schooling-3.html After the war Germans were not allowed to manufacture arms. Walther therefore licensed the French company Manufacture de Machines du Haut-Rhin, shortened to Manurhin, to produce PP and PPK pistols. These were produced in the factory at Mulhouse-Bourtzwiller, France not very far from the Walther factory in Ulm, Germany. These guns were clearly identified as being made in France under licence. They did not show the Walther banner. Later, German companies were allowed to re-commence production of arms. For some time after this Walther made the forgings which were sent to Manurhin for machining. The soft or unhardened slides were then returned to the Walther factory at Ulm where they were roll marked and hardened. They then completed the final assembly, testing and proofing. Under German law, because the final work was completed in W Germany, they were entitled to mark the guns as having been made by Walther in Germany. Possibly at the same time, Manurhin continued making pistols entirely in France, and these were tested and proofed in France. They will have the St Etienne proof mark. French made guns were not entitled to show the Walther banner. Tabs will come along soon and correct me. |
just gun-coat it and move on. I have a Colt 1911a1 that I want to smooth out the slide on. I'm not into markings.
Yesterday I was driving along "That Guy" he had a M3, with a license plate that had M# in the letters, M3 license plate frame, M3 Hat, & I think M3 jacket on. |
Starting in 1978, a licensing disagreement began between Walther and Manurhin.
Walther had issued a contract with Ranger Manufacturing in Gadsden, Alabama for the production of the PPK and PPK/s models and distribution by Interarms in Alexandria, Virginia as a work-around for importing the PPK which was banned by the 1968 Gun Control Act. This was interpreted by Manurhin as a breech of their license with Walther for exclusive manufacture for the pistols. Manurhin continued to produce the PP series until 1986 when the license with Walther was finally pulled. In spite of this, Manurhin continued to make and distribute Walther PP pistols under their name for sale in Europe. |
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Why would somebody go to the trouble to deface the slide and grips? I'm still confused about that...
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The Manurhin I have has the "Made in France" and St Etienne markings on it. The grips say "Manurhin", but the bottom of the grip that had a Walther ID on it was ground off very neatly.
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If the markings had been removed at the factory it would not have been left in the white, but blued over? Somebody did take the trouble of using a milling machine to professionally remove the marks. One would think that the person or people who did this MIGHT have had an animoisty towards Walther and the Nazis?
I would also want to have the date of mfg on the pistol...that might give some clues as to the rational for removing the Walther logo... |
I think that used to say "License Excl WALTHER MOD PPK Cal 7.65mm" - if you google image search for simlar spoons.
Why would anybody feel strongly enough to mill that off? |
I'm confused, if someone didn't like Germans, Walthers , etc..,. why would they even keep the pistol? Why go to the trouble of defacing it? I sent an email to Walther asking them to date the gun for me based upon the serial number. I'll post the results as soon as I receive them. Hopefully, the manufacture date will help solve this mystery...
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IFit really bugs you. I'll give you $200 for it!
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Should be able to have the slide refinished with no problems. Nice spoon! I have a PP in .32 that looks like new.
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Usually U can find a date of mfg on the spoon... |
A black permanent marker is your friend here! :)
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No mfg date on the gun, but the guys on the Walther forum said that Walther will provide the manufacture date if you send them the serial number, which I did... I'll get the cold bluing kit and cover up the defaced slide ASAP.
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I can't sell the gun as it isn't mine! My friend may give it to me and if he does, I'll try to find a replacement slide or have this one repaired, if it's even repairable. I need to get some magazines for it as I've taken it to the range and I really, really like shooting it!
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If U Cold Blue you add to the problem...
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I guess I should let David (targa911s) see it first. He's working on another spoon for me right now, the Remington Model 51.
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I have "repaired " such cases before.
Machine up a steel plate to have an interferrence fit to the slot, but slightly thicker. Clean up the slot on a mill if required to have a very clean edge. Heat the slide to 200 degrees and cool the plate in the freezer. Press together with a machinest vise. Allow to cool and dress the plate down to the slide level. Final polish and re-blue the slide. Done. This is a fairly easy repair and is worth the time. It will look nearly perfect with just a hairline showing the join. It will not make the piece a pristine collectable, but will make it somewhat more valuable and easier to sell. |
RPKESQ,
Thank you for explaining the repair process. I'll see if I can find someone to do it and I'll try to get the gun looking better than it does now. Thanks again! |
Art, if it has no collector value, might as well just blue it if it bothers you and shoot the hell out of it. It would make a nice "car" gun in that it would not bother "too" much if your car ever got broken in to.
That said, if the slot is not very deep, I might consider just machining that whole area and just end up with two vertical or slanted edges instead of the more obvious looking round ended "slot" prior to blueing. You could also just carefully cut a piece of grip tape and stick it on there.... it would just look like what most of us IDPA guys do with grip tape in strategic places on our competition guns. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1297470948.jpg |
It's a French gun. That mark is from when it was dropped.
A little cold blue and go shoot it. (sorry Tabby) |
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you have (2) choices to gets this RIGHT the first time if ya want it to look perfect.
earls service tewksbury MA. cylinder and slide nebraska those ARE the FREEKING GURUS and SPIRITUAL ADVISORS OF ALL THANGS WALTHER! why make a hack job into an abortion.............DO IT RIGHT! i love my walther ppk/s despite it being a smith und wesson recall. i stole the damn thing for $329 up in prescott valley. jammed like hell (FTF) and the following day i saw that smith had recalled umpteen million of them, so i sent mine(free of charge) in, with a letter of what i wanted(ramped/polish/headers/sidepipes) and POOF ! smith and wesson delivered(free) one hell of a nice reliable eats anything now(hollowpoints/FMJ's) walther PPK/S stainless. DO NOT BUY A SMITH WALTHER PPK/S without it being RECALLED! the decockers when activated would make pistol GO BANG! very very VERY BAD JU JU! look on the hammer for a PIN PUNCH MARK that was made at factory to denote that it had been thru smith and wessons RECALL PROGRAM! i would buy a walther P5Compact(9mm) in a heartbeat if i could find one reasonable. and a walther .22 match in a heartbeat after shooting them. fit my hands like a glove. and of course typical germanic/teutonic precision. |
Thanks for all of the good advice, guys! I'll find out what my friend wants to do with the PP. I'm hoping he gives it to me for storing his guns, cleaning and getting them all back to where they should be. He and his father NEVER clean their guns and I've cleaned all of them and got them to operate reliably. I'll be working on a Makarov in a few weeks...
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If this was a car, we'd call it a "Rat Rod" and say, "Well, it's not what I'd do, but there's a history there." Then we'd just drive the heck out of it.
You are talking restoration without being sure of the significance of the modification. I think the story is kind of interesting too. If it ain't really broke and all you are talking about is cosmetic, is it really worth the aggravation? I guess I can appreciate it either way. Les |
Here's some additional info from a guy on the Walther forums, this makes more sense to me...
"The defacement was not done by Manurhin. It was done by various importers who attempted to bring the guns into the USA after purchasing them surplus from parties overseas who had acquired them in scattered lots from different German police departments. That's why quite a few variations of defacement are seen; this example is one of the neater ones. The reason for the defacement was that the "WALTHER" trademark in the USA was owned by Interarms, the exclusive U.S. importer, which had registered that trademark with U.S. Customs. The Customs Service was thereby required to intercept any "gray market" importation of trademarked goods --even those with genuine (not faked) trademarks-- and seize the offending goods. Unless permission could be obtained from Interarms (not likely; it's a cut-throat business), the importers were given only three choices: surrender the guns for destruction, re-export them, or remove the trademarks. The European sellers had already been paid and were not going to take the guns back, so..." |
German cousins...
My father's Sig P230 (I cleaned it today) and the Walther PP... German cousins...
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1297621625.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1297621677.jpg http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1297621762.jpg This is my father's favorite and was his duty gun when he was a LEO. I cleaned it today for him as he's out of town on a cruise... http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1297621861.jpg When I get "cabin fever" in the winter, I clean guns... |
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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1297623262.jpg |
I think that's a great gun design. I like the Sig P230/232, but the plastic grips don't cut it for me and I would replace them with better grips.
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I'm fighting with a FEG PA63 right now. It FTE's after a few rounds. I believe it's due to the steel-cased ammo being too hard for the extractor to properly eject. I'm trying to find brass-cased ammo to test my theory, but I haven't found any locally yet...
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