Its the Math
 

A little background, I'm the President of a 25 home HOA, new neighbors moved in and found out that the center "Island" which is a small mound of land in the center of the street with some grass and one tree is watered from their water meter. It has been this way for 30 years since the HOA was built, the developer was cheap. Anyway they want to get compensated for the watering of the "Island", its about 20 feet across and has 3 sprinkler heads fed from a 1/2 inch line at about 85 PSI. Here are her emails and my response.


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----- Original Message -----
From: Her
To: me
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:28 AM
Subject: Island Water Bill


Hello Hugh,

Mike finally figured out that the island water comes on about 3 or 4 a.m. for 10 minutes. The timer for the island sprinklers is on our front lawn in the plants. Our water meter on the side of our house spins when the island is being watered. For 10 minutes of watering the island it is about 783 units of water.

I called the Water Company to get an estimate of the cost. I spoke to April, who stated it is hard to get an accurate cost for watering the island as there are other things involved in the water bill (energy charge, infrastructure, surcharges and you get charged a higher price if you for over certain amounts of units (over 8, over 25, etc.). However, April did say that 10 minutes of landscape watering every day is a lot of water, and the cost for that could be close to half our monthly bill. Underline by me, yeah right!!


I wouldn't care if it was $5 or $6 a month, but it appears as if it is costing a lot more than that.

Based on it being watered for 10 minutes a day every day, and the meter numbers running at 783 units for the 10 minutes. That is about one gallon of water supposedly, and a gallon costs anywhere from .80 cents to over $1.00. So if a month has 31 days, and it uses a gallon per day at $1.00 per day, that is $31.00, plus factoring in energy usage, etc. it could be $35.00 or so per month just for the island.

From: Me
To: Her
Subject: Re: Island Water Bill
Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 14:45:43 -0800


You may want to double check your math. The water charges start at $0.80/unit of water and go up from there. One unit is 748 gallons (which is 100 cubic feet of water by the way), so at the first tier, it would be $0.00107 per gallon. At 80 cents per gallon, I'd be taking showers in Evian, it would be cheaper. If it ran for 783 units, that would 585,684 gallons in ten minutes, or 3,514,104 gallons per hour. A fire hydrant is only designed to deliver 180,000 gallons/hour.


----- Original Message -----
From: Her
To: Me
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 4:16 PM
Subject: RE: Island Water Bill


I'm going by what April at Newhall Water Co. explained to me. Yes, I did have the gallon thing wrong, April did say one unit is 748 gallons - my mistake on that. April did say that water starts at .80 cents and goes up from there, sometimes to over $1.00 depending on usage,a dn I cam see that on my bill as well.

Mike said the water on the island came on, he went to our meter, it was at 391588.61 at the start, at the end of the 10 minute watering cycle, our meter was at 391614.73, so Mike said the difference is 783.6. I explained all that to April and she said those numbers are units of water. She said 10 minutes of watering landscaping each day is a lot of water, and is probably half the cost of our bill.

So obviously this needs to be figured out correctly since we do not know, and you do not know, how much this is costing and if we should be reimbursed, so that is why I will have the Water Company come out soon as Mike has some time off. Hopefully a professional instead of an office person can tell us exactly what the deal is here.

Until then, enjoy your Evian showers!

To: Her
From: Me

391614.73 - 391588.61 = 26.12 units

26.12 units x 748 gallons/unit=19,537.76 gallons in ten minutes, which equals 117,226.56 gallons per hour. Like I said, a fire hydrant delivers 180,000 gallons per hour. Something doesn't add up.

I'm more than happy to meet with the Water Company and you guys to figure this out.

She was right on the substance but wrong in the terminology.

Sounds like it's taking a little over one unit a day at nearly $1 a day...

So yea, $30 or so a month cost to them. No?

Maybe, read the edit at the end of my post. It doesn't add up, that would be a flow rate of 4,500 gallons per hour, from three residential sprinkler heads and fed by a 1/2 inch line, don't think so.

My water meter reads in tenths of gallons (units?).
Average sprinkler head disperses 12 GPM * 3 heads * 10 Minutes = 360 gallons per day
Call that half a unit (748 gals) per day which would be about $0.50 = or $15/month.

Ahh, just three heads for 10 mins a day....yea that can't be right. Hmmm

Found this:

A unit of water is 100 cubic feet or 748 gallons.Water meters typically read in cubic feet. One cubic foot of water is equal to 7.48 gallons.


I'm guessing hubby's not reading the meter right

Given the info I found, this means it's 26.12 cubic feet of water...or 1/4 unit. So her actual cost is 26.12% what she thought it was.

I had a similar situation many years ago. I was living in an apartment complex where each building had 8 units. Each building had 2 outside lights to illuminate the parking lot. I discovered that one light was wired to my service panel, and the other was wired to another's panel. I called the utility company. They told me there were 2 options. (1) The owners could rewire the lights on their own service meter. (2) If the owners didn't want to rewire the lights, they would be responsible for my ENTIRE electricity bill. I informed the manager of the complex. Within a week, all 11 buildings were rewired and new meters installed. The utility company told me I could not be reimbursed for the owner's past electricity usage. I would tread lightly, and separate the water service. In legal terms, you are stealing from them.

ah units...

ya always need to pay attention to the units.

sounds like they were off by a couple magnitudes. (by thinking that the meter was reading in 100 ft³ units)


I expect the bigger expense will be in putting in a separate meter.

good find, Lendaddy

Next you're going to tell us she's a grade school teacher. :(

If a gallon costs $1.00, then taking a bath would cost about 40 bucks!


If lendaddy's stuff is correct, then 26.12 cubic feet = 195.378 gallons. Does that seem right?



Also, +1 on finding out what the unit of measurement on the meter is, and if there's a multiplier, like x10 or something.

One Unit is 748 gallons or 100 cubic feet, which is how our meters are measured and how we are billed. I was having a little fun with her since she was the one starting with the math. The previous homeowner never bothered to bill us. I told her if it was an issue we'd compensate them for the water. My wild guess is, like Mark said $15-$20/month.

Its a good thing that her hubby is a movie grip and not an accountant.

This cow says that 3 sprinkler heads watering for 10 min a day costs half of her total bill?

What a sad statement about critical thinking.

OTOH, there is no need to water every day. Why hasn't this been addressed. Oh, it's on her system.

Christ, another major intellectual feat.

In fact, if you read her statement, she has no clue how to structure a sentence:
"The timer for the island sprinklers is on our front lawn in the plants."

Go ask her if you can take a pic of the timer on the "lawn (but) in the plants."

Good God.

I hope she gives good head because beyond that, she is one useless human.

Milt,
It really doesn't matter if the timer is on the lawn, or in the plants. The water is being 'stolen'. How would you feel if your neighbor ran an extension cord over to your garage, but told you it was only running a television for 10 minutes a day?

The water isn't being "Stolen" the previous owner didn't bother to bill us by looking at the separate water meter. This homeowner, in her defense, wants to know what % it is of her water bill. Its a separate aftermarket water meter and not part of the water company's system. I was laughing about her math skills. She's the one who started with her "logic" not me.

^^^ Depends on what he's watching... :)

It is being 'stolen'. It is not the resident's obligation to manage the billing for your water. I know it sucks, but that's where you're at.

Hugh-I remember on an earlier post inviting you to move over here to Florida. The offer still stands!!!

"Stolen" implies taken without consent or knowledge. She know about it through disclosure and escrow before they bought the property. Perhaps I should mention that we have no common grounds in the HOA. All the properties run out to the center of the street, and the "Island" happens to be on their property, but since it's in the middle of the street, it doesn't look like it. I happen to water a section at the end of the cul-de-sac that sure doesn't look like its my property, but it is. Our entrance waterfall is on someone else's property.

Sounds like a job for Turco on KUSI as he loves to dive into HOA issues and no matter how long the watering was going along, you as the head of the HOA will get the heat when the TV crew comes calling. Happens around the San Diego area 3 or 4 times a year.........

If it is their grass, why is she beetching?

It sounds like a potential future problem, potentially legal, which is best not put on the internet...


As a President, the easiest fix would be to get an accurate reading at all the heads, get a written vote from the rest of the board, and give a credit to their upkeep of that "common area" based upon a consistent watering schedule.
Or if permanently-dividing the water is needed, get board approval and tap/meter to the location from another common source at great expense.

If the by-laws specifically state that there are no "common areas", then they might have the right to shut off the water flowing to property outside their "ownership", they might have claim to that property through squatters rights, grounds for objecting to the terms of the original HOA/deed, and/or have grounds to recover those past costs.

(Interesting situation. I don't know the specifics and I'm not an attorney with knowledge of local laws or HOA documents. The best plan would be to solve the problem and be done with it.)

Its not a problem. I think its a $15-$20/month solution and we'll settle it. I just posted this for the "math" or lack there of, on her part.

It appears to me to be not only the Math, but the English too.

So there is a meter for the water that goes to the island, yes?

She can just get a break on her HOA dues for whatever it works out to be, that sounds like the Treasurer's job to me.

When I lived in Texas the water sort of sucked compared to here. It was this little water district, I was at the end of a run, and would have to go crack open the hydrant on the end occasionally when the water would get a bit rusty. There was a high base price, with like 10,000 gal of usage before you got billed for it. We only recently got meters here, before you were billed for water based on size of lot. Water tastes better here than it did in Texas.

Don, I don't think stolen is the correct term.

There still could be potential problems: The sprinkler heads and/or the course running under the road could be compromised which would end up on their bill. Conversely they might claim to drink bottled water and take one brief shower per week until you notice the new pool in the backyard, etc, etc...

Too many variables, which could all be solved with common sense.

why not just shut the thing off for a billing cycle and note the difference?

LOL! Good stuff. Now you know the kind of crap architects deal with every day trying to explain technical issues to laypeople... It's enough to make you want to pound yourself in the forehead with a ball peen hammer after a while...

Hugh, how much does a few bags of gravel and a rake cost? I'd turn the island into a desert island...

Good point.

Depending on how your regs are written that's a valid concern. Unlikely but still valid.

If it's her property, and her water, then tell her that she should just turn the valve to the right and stop watering it. Problem solved.