I don't and I've carried 2 different models. I have seen the trigger return springs break and also the polymer frames crack, especially around the ambi slide release. We have had others but those are the only things I have personally seen. Both of those rendered the gun completely inoperable, scary. I carry my Glock 26 and LCR in .357 off duty.

Here is a pic to lighten the mood



http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1301342518.jpg

Jeff, Tim, DH, and Sniper, you have all always seemed fairly knowledgeable to me WRT guns. I don't know that I could easily consider any of you idiots. You may not all know everything, but you all seem to know a lot more than the average Joe, and have a lot more experience.

That aside....

I have a Springfield Armory XDM, it's a striker fired gun that's VERY similar to a Glock. I've also fired a Glock, and 5-10 other guns (not tons of experience, but I've fired more than one example of each, striker fired guns, DA/SA hammer fired semi-autos, DAO semi-autos and revolvers). I can say without a doubt that the trigger on my XDM (which is similar to a Glock) is not actually like a SA or DA trigger. It's much longer and heavier than something like a cocked J-Frame or 1911 (much, much longer). It's also much shorter and much lighter than something like a J-Frame or uncocked Semi-Auto that's operating in DA mode.

So, yes, it would be much easier to accidentally fire a Glock that was cocked than a DAO gun.

Still, saying that some numbnuts wouldn't have shot himself with a cocked DA gun is probably not accurate either. A man that is semi-paniced about his gun falling out of his pants leg while in a club (drinking or not) is pretty likely to grab for the gun with a firm grip which may me enough to fire a round.

Yes I remember speaking with you on the phone some time back and was trying to be polite IIRC as you were awfully excited about modding your P7. I did not have my CCW at that time, but I do now (not that it matters). If I said I would not be carrying my Glock it was only because I have a 34 which is a bit large to carry in most situations. I can assure you after a couple weeks of nightly practice drawing/reloading with the Glock both live and dryfiring, I had no worries about my ability to safely draw and fire my Glock and in fact felt very comfortable with it.

Several months later of nearly nightly practice and weekly competitions, I am at least above average in drawing and firing from concealment rapidly at human size fixed/moving targets if one were to judge from the scores (nearly all IDPA competitors where I shoot have CCW permits and most have been competing for years). You can make light of my one full season of IDPA all you want, but that much condensed practice does a much better job of preparing an individual to safely carry than going to an indoor range once or twice a month and firing from a booth. I presently daily carry either my FEG PA 63 or my TCP... I may end up buying either another TCP or a baby Glock in the future as I hate the silly de-cocker safety lever on the PA-63 and it's ridiculously long/heavy first shot trigger pull. Drawing and firing the little TCP OTOH is very similar to the Glock and with thousands of rounds going downrange in competition/practice with the Glock it only makes sense to carry something that functions the same.

Don't all Glocks come standard with a 5.5 lbs. and .5" trigger pull? I guess you could change that or it might lighten up with a lot of use. But 5.5 lbs. is a LOT more than a Glock weighs, even with a 33 rd. magazine. You have to pull the trigger for that gun to go bang. If you drop it, let it fall. It cannot fire unless it lands with the trigger guard around something sticking up from the ground like a game of horseshoes. It has an internal firing pin block like most modern semi-auto pistols.

Again, my dislike of Glocks is purely a personal thing. As I've stated before, they are fine weapons - as reliable as sunrise tomorrow, accurate enough for the intended purpose, and as rugged as they get. I've shot too many to remember, and actually enjoy shooting them. Ergonomics are great, and once I got used to the trigger, I actually do much prefer it to any DA auto.

My only beef (o.k., other than the plastic) is that I feel the fire control mechanism is more dangerous than others. I firmly believe it is more suited to expert shooters than to neophytes, inexperienced, or untrained / poorly trained shooters. Towards the philosophical end of the discussion, it irks me that it was initially marketed as requiring little training and familiarization. Maybe to pick one up off a table and make it go "bang", yes, but to carry it day to day is a whole 'nother issue. It does lead the modern firearms world in AD's. It takes a little more care to carry one than even a 1911 in condition one, and certainly more than a double action revolver.

I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with your statement that one could discharge a double action gun - revolver or auto - by grabbing it with a firm grip to keep from dropping it. First and foremost, it shouldn't be cocked if it's in the holster or inside his pants - that's the "advantage" of a DA revolver or a DA auto. We simply can't help the numbnuts who would carry one around cocked. So, if it's not cocked, one must overcome a very long, very heavy (relative to the Glock) trigger pull. These trigger pulls are simply too long and heavy, and have a "stacking" affect at the end of the pull. Even "good" DA revolvers go over 12 pounds of pull, with damn near an inch of travel, getting heavier through that travel.

Anyway, don't let my personal dislike of Glocks sway you. I'm just an overly opinionated curmudgeon of a shooter. I don't like Remington 700's, AR 15's, any double action autos, over/under shotguns, or a host of other popular, serviceable firearms. As far as I'm concerned, the Colt Model P is the high water mark of handgun design. And yes, there are plenty of AD's from numbnuts with those, too...

Mr Hancock, this to me is the most persuasive point you make

"Drawing and firing the little TCP OTOH is very similar to the Glock and with thousands of rounds going downrange in competition/practice with the Glock it only makes sense to carry something that functions the same."

I still don't like how a Glock feels in my hand, and think there are some short comings in the design, but I am only picking for me.

The 5.5 connector is the most common. The "5.5" number is a bit confusing as it is basically the pull weight at the very tip/end of the trigger. When I measure pull weight, I measure in the middle of the curve of the trigger where the center of the pad of my finger exerts force. A 5.5 connector equipped Glock will have a higher pound trigger pull than 5.5 when measured like this. I have never measured a 5.5 connector equipped Glock, but I would "guess" it measures at around 6.5-7 pounds and is around 7/16"-1/2" length of pull. The difference in the various Glock connectors is simply a change in ramp angle that the trigger bar engages as it moves rearward. The lighter Glock connectors in theory generate a "slightly" longer pull distance than the steeper ramp heavy poundage connectors.

FWIW, I scaled the trigger pulls on my TCP and a friends new LCP but did not record the length of pulls. The TCP trigger came in at 5 pounds while the LCP was 8 pounds. From memory, the LCP is probably 1/8" longer pull than the TCP which is roughly 1/8" longer than my Glock 3.5 connector.

So a Glock with a 5.5 stock trigger will be very similar in pull weight to an LCP but with approximately 1/2 the length of pull. Of course one must pull a Glock trigger from the middle of the trigger to release the trigger mechanical block..... simply applying force at the tip or from the side of the trigger will not depress the mechanical block hence the gun won't fire.

Apparently to some folks a 5-7 pound 1/2" long trigger pull is positively a scary accident about to happen yet those same folks feel at ease if you add some magical fraction of an inch more to the pull length.

That's the way I feel about an XD. When I point a Glock, it's on the money with little effort. It just 'points right' for me.
My 1911 is much the same, but I attribute that more to muscle memory.

The Gun Zone -- True Glock AD

A cop whose jacket drawstring caused an ND becuase of the glock's short, light trigger pull. This is another ND that could never, ever happen with a DAO, DA (or a P7), or any single action with an engaged manual safety.

So the cop had perfect trigger discipline....and his glock still shot him.

Glock: Making cops limp since 1986.

Sounds like exactly what i said.

Again, an LCP trigger is almost 2x the weight with about double the length of pull (if not more). The two trigger pulls are not comparable other than in the fact that they're both triggers...

Good luck getting a drawstring to cause an ND with a DAO LCP. It's a fairly common occurance with a Glock, as in the link i posted above.

Glocks have triple the ND rate of any other modern pistol. That'd be 3/1. How's that for a fraction?

The DAO trigger on a Ruger LCP or any DAO pistol is vastly safer for practical carry than the short, light trigger pull of a glock. That is just a fact. Why do you think the NYPD 8lb triggers even exist at all? Because so many NYPD cops shot themselves with their glocks.

Sheesh, it's as if these things never occured at all in your world. Open your eyes.

Drawing and firing a DAO is not "very similar" to drawing and firing a glock.

Drawing and firing a Sig or any other make DAO would be similar to drawing and firing a DAO TCP.

Seriously...beyond the fact that they both have triggers....no real similarity.
No, they do not all come with the 5.5lb trigger. Some models come with a much lighter target trigger, but even the factory trigger is light enough to cause an ND if you try and snag a glock midair when falling and end up grabbing the trigger first.

You are absolutely correct in your assessment of how to treat a falling glock. Let it fall.


Well the whole idea behind a DA is that you don't have to carry it cocked. So the comparison i was making is an uncocked DA or DAO (or even a SA with a manual safety engaged) vs a Glock, in Plaxico Buress' case, would not have caused an ND.

The short light trigger of the glock has caused countless reholstering accidents not just because someone has their finger on the trigger while reholstering, but even a drawstring blowing into the holster top while the pistol is drawn can and HAS caused NDs with Glocks. That wont happen with a DA, DAO, or SA with manual safety engaged. And that is not an uncommon type of ND with Glocks either.

And honestly, the biggest design flaw with the glock is that the trigger MUST be pulled to strip the weapon. There is a whole brigade of people that have shot themselves when cleaning their glock because of this idiotic design feature.

Off the top of my head, it is the only gun that has this requirement to field strip it- and it is a seriously seriously stupid design flaw.

8lbs vs 6-7lbs or so is not double the weight.... You are either exaggerating or you are incorrectly assuming the the Glock connector numbering system is the weight of pull measured in the center of the trigger. You are obviously right about the pull being longer on the LCP, but by no means would most people who have shot Glocks claim it has a short trigger pull. I have measured the pull weight of both the LCP and a Glock and your "double the weight" is just flat out wrong when talking about the stock 5.5 or the 7.5 Glock connectors.


And yes drawing and firing an LCP/TCP with one in the pipe is very much the same procedure as drawing and firing a Glock.

Internally, the LCP "hammer" is pre-set ("partially" cocked) when racking the slide.
Internally, the Glock "striker" is pre-set ("partially" cocked) when racking the slide.

On both guns, simply pulling the trigger makes them go bang.... same... same... except one trigger gets pulled a bit farther before the rearward traveling hammer/striker gets released. Some would argue that neither are exactly the best definition of DAO although that is the term most often used when describing/classifying both of them.

So be careful with that LCP Bill.... should one of your goddesses toss it to you and it hits your finger just right, it could go off. You know.... Mass X Acceleration = Force and all that.

Actually what is "seriously seriously stupid" is that anyone would be dumb enough not to check for clear any firearm each and every time they lay their hands on it. Of course I am of the ilk that thinks in general people are responsible for their actions not the machinery they use incorrectly.

Yeah, I'm not getting the 'design flaw' out of that....

No other pistol that i can think of requires you to pull the trigger before disassembly. You think every other manufacturer is wrong, and that glock is the only one that got it right? Hell, lots of companies have magazine safeties and loaded chamber indicators to further prevent administrative discharges, which are probably the most common of all types of ND's.

The internet is full of pix of people that have shot themselves while cleaning their glock. They are not pretty pictures.

Glock perfection, indeed.

I say their motto should be "Glock: We make cops limp."

Never stripped an XD have you?

Bill, admit you are full of **** for once, save yourself the energy for banging skanks...

Well this post has definitely convinced me of one thing, after reading what most of you have had to say and realizing there are some dangerous characters here, I'm going to get a handgun and start packing. Small, light, effective, any suggestions?http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/uzi.gif

i'm sure not safe per mr sniper... but....

The Products - R9 series | Rohrbaugh Firearms

As much as you seem to dislike most cops, I am suprised you are not a Glock fan. ;):D

I wonder how much training/practice the average city raised cop gets in regard to drawing/firing their weapons? My guess would be far less than the average gun afficianado.

Same question for the average soldier in basic training. I know while we carried our M16's empty quite often as we marched around Fort Leonard Wood in the 80's, we really did not spend that much time actually firing them. While my memory is fuzzy, I bet I did not fire more than a few hundred rounds during basic. The military takes all kinds and "some" of them are not always the sharpest. I would agree that I would not trust all of the guys to exercise safe gun handling practices.