Loser....all I see is blah, blah, blah......

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/style_e...fault/flag.gifhttp://www.914world.com/bbs2/style_e...ult/finger.gif

Actually, that link can start your education on the issue if you so desire, but somehow I doubt you will. Easier to drink the propaganda. Your modern sense of 'American' citizen and 'full civil rights' during WWII is laughable.

But, because the book is written by a 'wingnut' in your estimation, it must have no facts? I have read many books and have been to the internment camps, have you?

Whereas the enlightened French treatment of the 'Vichy" and the collaborators was much more high minded and sophisticated, wasn't it?

To be lectured about civil and human rights by a european is most amusing.:D

There frankly is enough racism and selective memories to go around. My undergrad advisor was sent to Manzanita. Not a party, but certainly pales in comparison with the Japanese atrocities in China. Of course just because someone else acts worse than you does not excuse the behavior.

The glossing over of the Rape of Nanking and related matters compared to the continued high visibility of the plight of Jews before/during WW2 is interesting and predictable given the biases in the western world. They are ugly incidents in the history of humans, but not all atrocities are treated equally in hindsight.

Let's start with the Revolutionary War. France saved our asses then.

WW I, American was late to the party and had very little affect on the war. American soldiers were poorly trained, ill equipped (they had to use French and British equipment as there own was nearly useless), and required months of training in France just to be partially able to hold their own against the retreating Germans.

WW II, Americans were late to the party again but fought much better. Of course so did the Free French, Free Poles, British, Canadian, Free Belgium and Resistance from most Western European countries. The French Resistance provided the vast majority of intelligence required for D Day. And of course the Russians were the single most important player in Europe responsible for the German defeat.




Well, you got the Revolutionary War part right. The rest, not so much.

The joke is quite funny but it is entirely on you. :eek:

As an American citizen and vet who was raised in California and who still spends several months of the year there, I have visited the internment sites in in three States. I have read the US Constitution and Bill of Rights. I have a Masters in History with my specialty in WW II. I attended the War College while in service.

What do you have as any kind of expertise?

Point out the factual errors in my posts, not your opinions, but facts that can be verified.

Read the link you posted, it is full of criticisms for this political hack from historians. I haven't even mentioned the crap he spouts about hating Muslims. Just what do you use for evidence? Lies, political rants and rightwingnuts apparently serve your purposes very well. Not a single peer-reviewed history journal has commented favorably on this book. Not even from Conservative historians. If this is an example of the quality of books you read, then I understand your lack of intelligence.

History on the other hand, documented, peer-reviewed historical evidence is meaningless to you. We know your type.

Now just go and play, while the adults laugh at your ignorance.

Please post the evidence to correct me.

The French were late to the party back in the 1700s. They only got invloved due to economics. They liked American textiles and raw materials that were denied to them by the English export laws.

As to WWI, the people did not want to get involved. WWII about the same, the Pearl Harbor thingy got us off the couch. Germany declared war on the US....then started attacking US shipping in the Atlantic in earnest. There were "incidents" prior to the formal declaration.

Part I liked....US sent scrap metal to Asia and was the primary source of the metals used to build the war machines.

Agreed.

I vehemently disagree. In fact the US's entry in the war tipped the balance. Up to that time Germany (and to a lesser degree Austria and Bulgaria) had succeeded in knocking one of the Entente partners out each year of the war starting in 1916. And this was in spite of Germany repeatedly being dragging them into bad situations by Austro-Hungary.

Serbia - conquered in 1914 by Austria and Bulgaria
Montenegro - Surrendered in 1916
Russia - Separate peace in 1917
Romania - Separate peace in May 1918

The Germans consistently had far fewer casualties than the Allies, once again in spite of being dragged into bloodbaths like Carpathian campaign of the Winter and Spring of 1915. For the most part the entire war took place on Allied territory. If it hadn't been for American support, the Germans would most likely have punched right through the Allied lines on the Western Front in the spring offensives of 1918. While the US troops didn't start to fight in any significant quantities until the summer of 1918, the logistics and manpower impact can't be denied. For example just by occupying quiet sections of the lines in the first half of 1918, the Americans allowed the French and British troops enough of a respite to regroup and consolidate their forces. They also allowed the French and British to commit their reserves with the knowledge that American troops would be available for future use. I'd argue that the key to the Allies success was the British Navy's success in limiting Germany's access to the US during the war. In 1914 Germans constituted the largest ethnic group in the US, most of which had emigrated in the previous 50 years and still spoke German and had connections in Germany. Germany sent the commercial submarine Deutschland to the US twice in 1916 to try to maintain connections with that group and formally with the US (as well as drop off saboteurs). But two trips in 3 years was not enough to keep the US either Neutral or pro-German. Compound that by the propaganda failure of the unrestricted U-Boat campaign and inept diplomacy on the part of the Germans and the result was that they pushed the US to the allied side.

In regards to WWII, I tend to be in agreement with Tabs. Sure the Russians provided a lot of man-power (and territory) in the war against the Germans, but I'm not convinced that the they, the British and the Free French could have beaten the Germans on their own. Also note that Russia absolutely refused to engage the Japanese, and didn't declare war on them until the last weeks of WWII when it was clear that the Americans, British and Australians were immanently going to defeat them. So one reason why they had so many troops to apply against Germany is because they were willing to allow the Japanese Empire to continue in the Pacific.

Also, without American supplies, it's not clear that the British could have cleared the Germans out of North Africa. (Once again the Germans seemed to have a knack for partnering with countries who constantly dragged them into bad situations.) Without the German defeat in North Africa, it's not clear that the Allies could have rolled up through Italy, tieing up the German forces in that theater as they did.

So once again, I see that the US's impact in WWII was similar to it's impact in WWI -- it decided the war.

The lines of "us and them" "good and evil" were not as clear-cut as the pictures in our children's history books.

Hitler had appeasment by Chamberlain, Vichy France, and a pack with Stalin. Many Americans were initially against fighting for far away Europe. Many U.S. companies(and parts of U.S. government) were doing good business with the Nazi's before, during, and after the war.
Democracy didn't mix with either Fascism or Communism back then.

Consider the example of John Rabe, the asian version of Shindler, where a major German company with Nazi ties initially supplied the enemies of it's allie. It's interesting to see Chinese in German uniforms fighting Japanese.

There were great divisions in the motivations of the Axis powers as well. The German Wermark and the Nazis often clashed, as did the Imperial NavyAirforce and the Army. Many Okinawans were as afraid of the mainlanders as they were of us barbarians.

Not cut-and-dry.

Sorry to burst the alternative world view but, the US was the primary reason both axis threats failed.

Without the initial material and political support of the USA, Britain doesn't survive.

If Britain doesn't survive .....Russian goes down hard, no way Russian survives
a full German effort.

The Russian air force had their own "ultimate weapons" begining into production in 1944, a lot of unavigatable space, and a lot of motivated people.
Ground troop can't survive without big supply chains, and they are easy to break without foot/horse traffic.

Even without the U.S. involvment, there was no way a victorious Axis could maintain a forceful empire for very long while a guerilla war was being fought simultaneously throughout.

5-20 years tops before it came crashing down, spliting up, or the Axis at war with itself.

I think its pretty cut and dry......there is no "quote" alternate defeat of the Axis power without direct US involvement. Are there alternate final outcomes for sure, but not in any 6 year time frame of the actual history. It is unimaginable what the last seventy years would have be like, if the US didn't intervene. Its just lucky"in a historical context", that both axis powers were to say a bit "over ambitions"

Just delaying Barbarosa one year to secure N Africa and the Med, would have made it impossible for the US to react. Again there are many alternative, but none that defeat the axis without US involvement.

There are so many incredible what-ifs with regard to WWII. What if, say around 1942, Hitler had told his generals, "You guys run the war from now on and I'll be the political figure/head of state, ok? I want all conquered land to remain under German control and I want all the Jews in that land exterminated. Other than that, you guys do what needs doing and I'll see that you get the tools and political cover." Imagine if he had really done that. WWII would have been a stalemate and the ensuing Cold War would have been between the US and Nazi Germany with Hitler dying of old age in the 1970's.

We didn't learn a lot about WWII in school, probably because our parents lived through it and they thought they would tell us about it. Ironically, my father never talked about WWII until he got alzheimers and his short term memory went. Then he would sit for an our telling stories about being in the Philippines, often off color stories right in the cafeteria in full hearing of everyone.
I just read a book by William Manchester - Goodbye Darkness. It was an interesting insider memoir of WW II in the pacific.

$10.00 says that the Russians STILL have USA produced goods left over from "the great war"

snap, crackle, POP! WooHoo! excuse me while I take a victory lap! :D:D:D

This is a must read! I cannot emphasize it enough. I actually met the main character many years ago, and boy does he have a story to tell! He's 94 today and still exercising regularly!

Two of my uncles served...both Army air corps. One in Europe, flying B-17's, the other a "communications officer" in the Pacific. Never quite heard the details, but he retired a full bird in the 1960's.

Cindy's Uncle was 1st Cav, Guadalcanal...didn't know until I read his Obit last year that he was silver star & purple heart.

Probably most families can relate tales of those who served. WWII was a biggie, no doubt!

“I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me.”

General George S. Patton

First off, many Countries helped defeat Germany. All paid in blood.

But the single Country who made the largest effort, obtained the largest share by far of actually killing Germans and tied down the vast majority of German forces from 1941 to 1945 was the USSR.

Everybody loves to speculate.

What if.....


How about examining the actual known facts?


Russia kicked the Japanese butt so bad in the East in 1939 in Manchuria. Japan never threatened the USSR again allowing Stalin to utilize the huge (over 5 million) population of military reserves. That is why the Russians did not fight the Japanese when we were. The US asked for the Russian’s help since the US was having much difficulties in the Pacific in 1943-1945.

All the vast speculations about if Germany did not attack the West and used her full power to attack Russia in 1940 is interesting as a parlor game, but doesn’t hold much validity when you look at actual combat forces, training and material at the time.

Germany did not have the combat experience, material or active divisions to launch a successful invasion of Russia in 1939 or 1940. The German Order of Battle clearly shows this as does the OKW records of all German divisions. The German experience in Poland in 1939 is ample evidence for this. All units suffered higher than expected casualties and slower progress. Many pieces of equipment were found to be deficient in design. Training was discovered to be not in tune with modern warfare. A major rework of the German forces was undertaken. In 1940 the attack on the Low Countries and France showed considerable improvement, but the Germans were very thinly spread and had to strip the Eastern Front to have barely enough forces on the Western Front.

Russia had territory to sacrifice to gain time and move production facilities beyond the range of German aircraft. This she did with enormous casualties. Much like what the US did in the Pacific with the Philippines and Midway, Wake, etc.

Russia was out producing the Germans decisively by 1942 in all categories. By the end of 1941 and early 1942 Russian had stopped the Germans cold and destroyed the Sixth Army at Stalingrad. As well as returning the Caucasus oil fields to Russia.

The immediate Russian offensive (as soon as the weather allowed) made a huge bulge into the German lines. This was stopped by both weather and increased German resistance. That was the point where Germany lost all ability to make any significant offensive inroads on the Eastern Front.

The German offensive at Kursk was doomed to failure from the start. Germany was quickly being bled white by Russia. She had to scrape together units from the Western Front in order to have sufficient forces to attack the Kursk salient. Germany also had to delay the attack in order to build new tanks, aircraft and artillery as these had been depleted in large numbers on the Eastern Front.

Russia had no such shortages. Russian factories were running 24/7 and producing weapons at a faster rate than even the US in several categories. The respective Order of Battle for both sides tells the story quite clearly from January 1943 to July 1943. Russia had no problem stopping the Kursk offensive within a few miles and immediately launching major offensives in August, September, January and March which effectively put the Germans into an increasingly rapid retreat all along the Eastern Front, which continued all the way through the remainder of 1944 and ended in 1945 in Berlin.

Lend Lease supplies did not arrive in any sufficient amounts until mid 1943. So the defeat of German forces in front of Moscow, the Russian Winter offensive of 1941 and early 1942, the blunting of the Central German summer offensive of 1942, the total destruction of the entire German 6th Army at Stalingrad in late1942 and early 1943 and the Russian Winter offensive of early 1943 to create and fortify the Kursk salient was all accomplished by virtually 100% Russian effort.

Not bad for having no US help.

And no sign of not being able to continue if US help had not arrived.

I lost a family member in the Bataan Death march. Part of the reason why people these days do not know about the way the Japs treated prisoners during the war is that very little of it is being taught these days.

Check out the current school history books and they have been cleaned up of the "nasty parts" but sad to say it happened and hiding it does no good.

Hey Mike,

Do not feel bad, he is on more "ignore lists" and anyone else on the forum. Has been on mine for eons...

Knows everything, anything American is terrible yet lives here part of the time and then gos and hides in France. Wonder how many weapons he has dropped and run from waving the white flag?

Had the Polish not captured an Enigma code machine, figured it out for the most part and smuggled it to London in a diplomatic pouch before the Germans got it back, WW2 might have been very different.

The enigma machine at Bletchley Park provided far more than the Free French ever did. Once the invasion started the FF did assist a great deal behind the lines with blowing up rail lines and communication links.

Between that and the US Navy code-breakers cracking the Japanese codes, they carved years off of the war and saved numerous lives.

No worries, I want to get my chi back to a better place. Getting irked by an asshat isn't the way to do it.

The last one was Muhulandose....thank God they finally banned his cut and past ass.

As long as we are going down this path...

~~~~~

A lot of data that shows what WWII cost in aircraft, personnel and equipment.
The cost of doing business --**

Most Americans who were not adults during WWII have no understanding of the magnitude of it.* This listing of aircraft facts gives a bit of insight.*

276,00 aircraft manufactured in the*U.S.
43,000 planes lost overseas, including 23,000 in combat.
14,000 lost in the continental*U.S.

The*US*civilian population maintained a dedicated effort for four years, many working long hours seven days per week and often also volunteering for other work.

WWII was the largest human effort in history.
*
Statistics from*Flight Journal*magazine.*

“THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS*----*The staggering cost of war.”
****
*******THE PRICE OF VICTORY
B-17****** $204,370**** P-40****** $44,892
B-24****** $215,516**** P-47****** $85,578
B-25****** $142,194**** P-51****** $51,572
B-26****** $192,426**** C-47****** $88,574
B-29****** $605,360**** PT-17**** $15,052
P-38******** $97,147** *AT-6***** *$22,952

ON*AVERAGE*6,600 American service men died per month during WWII (about 220 a day).

PLANES A DAY WORLDWIDE -* From Germany's invasion of*Poland (Sept. 1, 1939) and ending with**Japan's surrender (Sept. 2, 1945) --- 2,433 days.
*From 1942 onward,*America*averaged 170 planes lost a day.
Nation************* *****Aircraft******** Average Lost Per Day**************
USA*************** ******276,400*************** 113
Soviet Union******* 137,200***************** 56
Great Britain*** *****108,500***************** 45
Germany******** *****109,000***************** 45*********
Japan************** ****76,300******************* *31

How many is 1,000 planes? B-17 production (12,731) wingtip to wingtip would extend 250 miles.* 1,000 B-17s carried 2.5 million gallons of high octane fuel, lifting 10,000 airmen to deliver 2,000 tons of* bombs.

THE NUMBERS GAME
9.7* billion gallons of gasoline consumed, 1942-1945.
107.8 million hours flown, 1943-1945.
459.7 billion rounds of aircraft ammo fired overseas, 1942-1945.
7.9 million bombs dropped* overseas, 1943-1945.
2.3 million combat sorties, 1941-1945 (one sortie = one takeoff).
299,230 aircraft accepted, 1940-1945.
808,471 aircraft engines accepted, 1940-1945.
799,972 propellers accepted, 1940-1945.
*
WWII MOST-PRODUCED COMBAT AIRCRAFT
*II-2 Stum0vik************* 36,183
Yak* 1, 3, 7, 9*********** ***31,000+
Bf 109******************** *30,480
Fw 190********************29,001
Spit/Seafire***************20,351
B-24/PB4Y***************18,482
Thunderbolt**************15,686
Mustang******************15,875
Ju* 88******************* 15,000
Hurricane*************** 14,533
P-40******************** 13,738
B-17******************* 12,731
Corsair*****************12,571
Hellcat**************** 12,275
Pe-2****************** 11,400
P-38******************10,037
Zero******************10,449
B-25******************9,984
LaGG-5**************9,920
Avenger**************9,837
P-39*******************9,584
Oscar****************** 5,919
Mosquito***************7,780
Lancaster*************** 7,377
He* 111***************** 6,508
Halifax******************* 6,176
Bf* 110*******************6,150
LaGG-7*******************5,753
B-29********************** 3,970
Stirling******************** 2,383

Sources:

Rene Francillon, Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific war; Cajus Bekker, The Luftwaffe Diaries* Ray Wagner, American Combat Planes; Wikipedia.*

According to the AAF Statistical Digest, in less than four years (December 1941- August 1945), the US Army Air Forces lost 14,903 pilots, aircrew and assorted personnel plus 13,873 airplanes inside the continental United States. They were the result of 52,651 aircraft accidents (6,039 involving fatalities) in 45 months.
Think about those numbers. They average 1,170 aircraft accidents per month---- nearly 40 a day. (Less than one accident in four resulted in totaled aircraft, however.) Those colossal losses cost the Axis powers nothing; not as much as one 7.7 mm bullet.

It gets worse . . .

Almost 1,000 Army planes disappeared en route from the U.S. to foreign war theaters. But an eye-watering 43,581 aircraft were lost overseas including 22,948 on combat missions (18,418 against the Western Axis) and 20,633 attributed to non-combat causes overseas.

In August 1943, 60 B-17s were shot down among 376 losses. That was a 16 percent loss rate and meant 600 empty bunks in England. In 1942-43 it was statistically impossible for bomber crews to complete a 25-mission tour in Europe.
Pacific theatre losses were far less (4,530 in combat) owing to smaller forces committed. The worst B-29 mission, against Tokyo on May 25, 1945, cost 26 Superfortress, 5.6 percent of the 464 dispatched from the Marianas .

On average, 6,600 American servicemen died per month during WWII, about 220 a day. By the end of the war, over 40,000 airmen were killed in combat theatres and another 18,000 wounded. Some 12,000 missing men were declared dead, including a number "liberated" by the Soviets but never returned.
More than 41,000 were captured, half of the 5,400 held by the Japanese died in captivity, compared with one-tenth in German hands. Total combat casualties were pegged at 121,867.

U.S. manpower made up the deficit. The AAF's peak strength was reached in 1944 with 2,372,000 personnel, nearly twice the previous year's figure.
The losses were huge---but so were production totals. From 1941 through 1945, American industry delivered more than 276,000 military aircraft. That number was enough not only for US Army, Navy and Marine Corps, but for allies as diverse as Britain, Australia, China andRussia. In fact, from 1943 onward, America produced more planes than Britain and Russia combined. And more than Germany and Japantogether 1941-45.

However, our enemies took massive losses. Through much of 1944, the Luftwaffe sustained uncontrolled hemorrhaging, reaching 25 percent of aircrews and 40 planes a month. And in late 1944 into 1945, nearly half the pilots in Japanese squadrons had flown fewer than 200 hours. The disparity of two years before had been completely reversed.

Experience Level:

Uncle Sam sent many of his sons to war with absolute minimums of training. Some fighter pilots entered combat in 1942 with less than one hour in their assigned aircraft. The 357th Fighter Group (often known as The Yoxford Boys) went to England in late 1943 having trained on P-39s. The group never saw a Mustang until shortly before its first combat mission.

A high-time P-51 pilot had 30 hours in type. Many had fewer than five hours. Some had one hour. With arrival of new aircraft, many combat units transitioned in combat. The attitude was, "They all have a stick and a throttle. Go fly `em."

When the famed 4th Fighter Group converted from P-47s to P-51s in February 1944, there was no time to stand down for an orderly transition. The Group commander, Col. Donald Blakeslee, said, "You can learn to fly `51s on the way to the target."

Note: Gone West HNL QB Brewster Morgan (Morgan's Corner up in Nuuanu off of Old Pali Road), a Honolulu boy and a member of the 4th Fighter Group, told me that they actually did stand down one day to transition from the P47 to the P51. They were pissed that the old groups still had the P47 [Brewster was with the Eagle Squadron in the Spitfire... later in the P47 when the US got into it in '42] and the newer groups coming over from the US all had P-51s. Blakeslee finally convinced AF to let them convert by standing down just one day.

An interesting side note... Brewster was shot down over France in '44 and became a POW... his roommate?... Douglas Bader... top English ace, with two wooden legs. Bader lost one of his legs when he bailed out and was captured... The Germans asked the Brits to send him another leg, which they did).

A future P-47 ace said, "I was sent to England to die." He was not alone. Some fighter pilots tucked their wheels in the well on their first combat mission with one previous flight in the aircraft. Meanwhile, many bomber crews were still learning their trade: Of Jimmy Doolittle's 15 pilots on the April 1942 Tokyo raid, only five had won their wings before 1941. All but one of the 16 copilots were less than a year out of flight school.

In WWII flying safety took a back seat to combat. The AAF's worst accident rate was recorded by the A-36 Invader version of the P-51: a staggering 274 accidents per 100,000 flying hours. Next worst were the P-39 at 245, the P-40 at 188, and the P-38 at 139. All were Allison powered.

Bomber wrecks were fewer but more expensive. The B-17 and B-24 averaged 30 and 35 accidents per 100,000 flight hours, respectively- a horrific figure considering that from 1980 to 2000 the Air Force's major mishap rate was less than 2.

The B-29 was even worse at 40; the world's most sophisticated, most capable and most expensive bomber was too urgently needed to stand down for mere safety reasons. The AAF set a reasonably high standard for B-29 pilots, but the desired figures were seldom attained.

The original cadre of the 58th Bomb Wing was to have 400 hours of multi-engine time, but there were not enough experienced pilots to meet the criterion. Only ten percent had overseas experience.

Conversely, when a $2.1 billion B-2 crashed in 2008, the Air Force initiated a two-month "safety pause" rather than declare a "stand down", let alone grounding. The B-29 was no better for maintenance. Though the R3350 was known as a complicated, troublesome power-plant, no more than half the mechanics had previous experience with the Duplex Cyclone. But they made it work.

Navigators: Perhaps the greatest unsung success story of AAF training was Navigators. The Army graduated some 50,000 during the War. And many had never flown out of sight of land before leaving "Uncle Sugar" for a war zone. Yet the huge majority found their way across oceans and continents without getting lost or running out of fuel --- a stirring tribute to the AAF's educational establishments.

CADET TO COLONEL:

It was possible for a flying cadet at the time of Pearl Harbor to finish the war with eagles on his shoulders. That was the record of John D. Landers, a 21-year-old Texan, who was commissioned a second lieutenant on December 12, 1941. He joined his combat squadron with 209 hours total flight time, including 2 ½ in P-40s. He finished the war as a full colonel, commanding an 8th Air Force Group --- at age 24.

As the training pipeline filled up, however those low figures became exceptions. By early 1944, the average AAF fighter pilot entering combat had logged at least 450 hours, usually including 250 hours in training. At the same time, many captains and first lieutenants claimed over 600 hours.

FACT:

At its height in mid-1944, the Army Air Forces had 2.6 million people and nearly 80,000 aircraft of all types. Today the US Air Force employs 327,000 active personnel (plus 170,000 civilians) with 5,500+ manned and perhaps 200 unmanned aircraft. The 2009 figures represent about 12 percent of the manpower and 7 percent of the airplanes of the WWII peak.

IN SUMMATION:

Whether there will ever be another war is doubtful, as fighters and bombers have given way to helicopters and remotely-controlled drones over Afghanistan and Iraq. But within living memory, men left the earth in 1,000-plane formations and fought major battles five miles high, leaving a legacy that remains timeless.

No joey, I don't know everything. It just seems that way to you...............

And I work in France.

And I see you posted evidence to validate my statements, thanks! SmileWavy