Any 2nd gen Camaro experts here?

[Tim Hancock]

I am toying with the idea of building an oval dirt racer out of a 2nd gen Camaro (mainly have been looking at '79-81'). I avoided Chevy/Ford/Dodge all my life, so I don't really have a good idea of what models were what back then.

If I do this, I will likely start with a 350 Chevy and 3 or 4 spd manual trans. Ultimately I would build a 383 stroker, but I can start out with less.

What year/model 2nd gen Camaros came stock with a 4 bolt main 350, 4 speed and disk brakes? The track I would race at mandates pretty much stock front American clip, but I can gut/fabricate the rear chassis one of several ways. Supposedly the Camaro front suspension has better geometry than many other GM chassis cars of the type that are legal in this local racing class.

The engine can be modded, but must use non "bowtie" (whatever that means) cast iron straight plug heads/intake/exhaust manifolds. No electronic ignitions. Valve train/cam/compression pretty much wide open.

The top guys "supposedly" are around 450-500 hp and turning 7000 rpm.

I have an old friend whose 17 yo son is racing latemodels and my friend and I are considering building up some bombers so we can play too.

Buying a complete used racer would be quicker/cheaper, but I like building stuff and this would make for a fun winter project.

[stomachmonkey]

We used to get our 4 bolts from the school bus company dirt cheap, strip to the block, get em dipped/machined and build back up.

A bowtie head is GM's aftermarket performance head. Think Mopar.

A non bowtie head would be the stock head the car left the line with.

[sammyg2]

79 to 81? good luck.

My brother had a 1979 Z-28. Gutless, two bolt main. liked to eat cams. 160 hp and it was the hottest engine they offered in Ca.
They got worse from there.

There's a rumor the SOME of the 79 Z28s with a 4 speed manual got 4 bolt mains out of the gutless 79 vette, but most of em were crap 2 bolts with cast cranks.

That was a bad era for cars. Really bad.

Can you swap an engine from a different model or year?

If so, get some 2.02 heads from an earlier vette 350/350 and have them bench flowed. Can you use a roller cam? that really wakes up a small block.
Lets you retain low torque and have radical lift on top.

i built a streetable 327 back in my younger years that ran on 94 octane pump premium and was just a tick over 465 hp at 7900 rpm.
That thing screamed. Gotta love short stroke big bore.
It was in a 65 nova (chebby II) and it walked on 440 cudas.

Undersquare is gazillion times better than the other way around, unless it's in a tow vehicle. That's why I don't get the 383 craze using stock heads. Take a square 350 that doan breath or rev and stroke it to make it rev worse.
Gotta have a roller cam, aluminium dart heads, and an 850DP to get it to scream.

They kinda work in 3800# cars with cast 2.02 heads but in a light car a good 327 will kick it's butt. Put stock 1.92 heads on a 383 and it'll need the Heimlich maneuver.

a good 327 has the bore of a 350, the stroke of a 383, with big valve 350 heads.
It breathes, it revs, it screams. Now take a 383 with the same bore but a much longer stroke, a shorter rod, and the same heads that are not much more than restrictor plates on a 383.

Great as long as you don't plan on going over 4200 rpm.

buy someone else's race car and put half the money and time into it to make it right.
Seriously.

[Tim Hancock]

Originally Posted by sammyg2

79 to 81? good luck.

My brother had a 1979 Z-28. Gutless, two bolt main. liked to eat cams. 160 hp and it was the hottest engine they offered in Ca.
They got worse from there.

There's a rumor the SOME of the 79 Z28s with a 4 speed manual got 4 bolt mains out of the gutless 79 vette, but most of em were crap 2 bolts with cast cranks.

That was a bad era for cars. Really bad.

Can you swap an engine from a different model or year?

Yep... just need to stick to the cast iron bits and no"bowie". I can buy any engine I want, but it would be nice to buy one with the car initially as it will lower my initial expense.

[VINMAN]

Tim, just curious, does that track mandate a 2bbl or 4bbl? Im assuming you are talking about street ot outlaw stock.

[LWJ]

Tim,

You need to talk to folks who are doing this at this track. I had a buddy who raced Ford junk. He had some loophole where he had a MONSTER two barrel carb and manifold that put out gobs of power. He raced against guys with a four barrel and severe limitations. I think most tracks have their own local rules. Figure this out and it will point you. I like the school bus block idea. This could be fun!
Larry

[VINMAN]

Back in the 90's I built a car for our local dirt track. I used a '81 malibu. got it about 80% done than had to sell it when I moved. The track rules were pretty limiting with engine mods. Pretty much had to be a bone stock motor. I built a 350 4bolt ( with the amount of power a 2 bolt would have been fine. 600cfm 2bbl, was limited to cast iron exhaust manifolds so couldnt get crazy with airflow anyway.
Lately have been toying with the idea of an outlaw stock again. Last yr I was looking into a 600cc dirt modified car, but the tracks they run that class at are too far away.

Heres the outlaw/street stock rules from my local track

http://www.newegyptspeedway.net/documents/OutlawStockRules2011.pdf

[Buckterrier]

isn't 79 - 81 3rd gen?

[john70t]

B1tchin Camero.

[RANDY P]

no 2nd gen had 4 wheel disk IIRC. As for 4 bolt mains, by now they are all butchered up who knows what it has in there.

Go with splayed maincaps - any machine shop can do it, or chevy block casting 3970010 should do.

rjp

[fastfredracing]

I don't believe any of those cars came with a 4 bolt block. I owned two factory 4 spd, z28 cars , and neither of them had 4 bolts, they all had front disc brakes, I don't remember ever seeing any with rear discs, but the brakes from a later firebird/camaro would be an easy swap if you are using a 10 bolt rear.
The 4 spd cars were always hard to come by , even when the cars were plentiful, The hardest part of the 4 spd swap for me was always finding a set of pedals. As far as tranny's go, I always had better luck with the super t 10's . I broke all of my muncies( never had an m22 though).
I wonder if vortec heads are allowed. My local engine guy loves them , and says they make more power than a lot of the aftermarket heads. I know they are building 400 hp motors all the time with them. . I sold off all of my stuff years ago, or I could have really helped you out. I had pedals, linkages, bell housings, shifters, motor cores, transmissions, several different rearends, with different ratios. I was really into this stuff before the porsche bug bit me. You can also get factory alum intakes if you are going to run a q jet. the 83, and up4bbl cars had them.
Sounds like a cool project, I mostly just saturday night street raced, and goofed around when I was into this stuff, but I always wanted to build a track stomper/auto cross car out of one of these.
I recently got to drive a car I built when I was about 21/22. I sold it off to a cute young girl, but when she went away to college, her dad took care of the car, still in pretty good shape. This one was a quickie cheap build from spare parts I had at the time.1980, Little 305 with around 10:1, mild cam, good factory heads, headers,later alum intake , q jet, duals, and 3:73 rears, mild stall convertor, and a wicked shifting th 350 ( I worked in a trans shop back then) car actually still runs pretty good 20 years later.
Man, I back then, I could build a pretty hot little motor for $1000.00-$1500.00 depending on what parts I had at the time. I can barely even buy a clutch for my 930 for that kind of money now. I sort of miss those days.

[Laneco]

You can do a splayed 4 bolt main on a 2 bolt main block.

The big thing is that you are starting out with a turd. A 79-81 is a real low performance engine and the heads are lousy. You're looking at 170 to 175 hp in stock form in a 3600 pound car.

An under powered porker with marginal suspension and brakes. If everyone has the same vehicle, then it's a fun race, and I do understand that. I would just look into the possibility of a backdated engine (e.g. pre-smog small block). If you could do that and wrap your little hands around an old high nickel big journal block with a set of 2.02's on top for your build, well, then you'd be cookin' with gas. It would cost you more to start with because the 79-81 engines are sold by the pound. But you'd make it up in power and longevity over the 79-81 engine.

Oh, and every 79-81 I've fiddled with was drum in the back including the so-called performance models.

angela

[lendaddy]

Originally Posted by Tim Hancock

Yep... just need to stick to the cast iron bits and no"bowie". I can buy any engine I want, but it would be nice to buy one with the car initially as it will lower my initial expense.

If you can swap any motor you want then you're all set. Don't sweat what the donor comes with. You can pick up a 4bolt small block for beer money.

[RANDY P]

PS the M21 4 speed is junk for the most part, easy to shatter. I think my record was 3 in a year on radials and behind a moderate 350.

rjp

[RANDY P]

PS don't screw around with old casting heads. Not worth the money unless it's class required.

Vortec cylinder heads or any of the moderately priced aluminum heads these days kill the old GM iron stuff we grew up on.

rjp

[Tim Hancock]

Here are the engine/trans rules.

ENGINES

1. Must be in stock location. No engine setback. #1 spark plug must be in line with or ahead of ball joints.
2. Must have cast iron intakes, exhaust manifolds, heads and blocks.
3. No headers. No bow tie intakes. No angle plug heads.
4. One carburetor only. No electric fuel pumps.
5. Stock factory distributor. No M.S.D. ignition systems.
6. All exhaust must be pointed away from the ground, preferably to outside of car

TRANSMISSIONS

1. No after-market transmissions allowed. (ie. Bert, Brinn etc.)


If it is not prohibited in the rules, then it is OK. So basically you end up with a somewhat limited intake exhaust..... but everything else is open to imagination. I know there are companies that can acid treat the cast iron intake to flow a "bit better". I am pretty sure the top guys probably do this and get away with it.

The reason for the year Camaro I listed is because supposedly it has the best front end geometry for a dirt oval car in regard to camber/caster and spindle size. Most guys presently run GM metric chassis, but some do run older Chevelle and Camaro front subframes because of the better front control arm geometry. Front contol arms and front subframe must remain stock.

The middle of the frame/cage and the rear frame/suspension is somewhat leniant and can be custom fabbed 3 bar, 4 bar or leafs. A stock "type" rear end must be run .... Most guys use a Ford 9" floater which is what I would probably end up with eventually.

Here are the rest of the rules from the racetrack website. 2010 UMP Bomber Rules | Oakshade Raceway

[RANDY P]

Heh, Dart Iron or AFR Iron heads - I dunno of any iron squarebore manifolds so you may be stuck with a Qjet- no biggie - open it up..

I don't know of any Iron manifolds for Vortec heads....

rjp

[sammyg2]

Originally Posted by RANDY P

PS the M21 4 speed is junk for the most part, easy to shatter. I think my record was 3 in a year on radials and behind a moderate 350.

rjp

Same here, but I've never been able to kill an m22 rock crusher. And believe me I've tried. Noisy little bastages though ......

[sammyg2]

So what yer sayin is this: as long as it's a cast iron head or intake, and as long as it isn't a bow-tie, it's OK.

So all we gotta do is get donovan or Dart to cast their aluminium design parts with iron instead of the silver stuff

[Laneco]

I've got a pair of iron ram-horn manifolds that I had jet-coated inside/out.

They would be legal. They aren't 40 year old manifolds, I bought them new about eight years go, ran on a SBC transplant in a Jaguar for about 3 or 4 years.

If you're interested, the price would be right.

My luck with M-21's seems to be greater than what everyone else here is reporting. I had a Saginaw that I drove pretty hard for about ten years before it spit the bit. Had it overhauled, but it was never the same.

As shocking as this may sound, given the speed that oval cars run, the flat track, and probably a pretty big power band on the engine, an automatic might not be that bad. I know, I know, heresy...

Another legal thing that will help you is the fuel pump. The old SBC and BBC have the mechanical pump mounted in the same place. Pick up a pump from an early 70's big block Caprice with air or similar. What you're looking for is alot of volume (and these babies pump it out) and a return fuel line. This will help keep the fuel temps down. Obviously there are aftermarket pumps with great volume, but the return fuel from the pump is your good buddy.

If you go the 327 route listed above, any high performance passenger car from the early/mid sixties is a good donor. These are all high nickel four bolt main blocks. There are big and small journal, you want big journal. The most common heads on these performance motors are 1.94. Don't overlook them in your quest for 2.02. The 2.02 is the most desirable for race (on the street 1.94 is probably better) but these are all old castings. Look real close at the 2.02 heads, many of them are cracked between the valve seats. Use it as a point of negotiation. They aren't junk, they can be fixed but it will cost money. The humps in the castings tell you it's a performance head, then roll it over and double check the valves. On a 2.02, they damn near touch. 1.94 has a bit of space between.

If your rules allow aftermarket heads, go with the iron Darts. Good stuff, and you could be into them for less than good rebuilt 2.02's.
angela