Why would you make such an assumption? It is statistically proven that those who have a Concealed Carry permit are less inclined to break the law or act in a manner to bring law enforcement attention. Unlike those who Carry Concealed without a permit (like criminals) they are the law abiding.

OH recently enacted some much-needed changes in their CCW laws. Looks like this cop doesn't support those changes.

Try reading the sentence of mine you quoted again, really slowly if necessary. The part where I say, "if they are doing anything shady..."

Yeah I missed that. My bad!

Shady and Concealed Handgun License are usually at odds. In Texas, a person with a concealed handgun license is 5 times less likely to commit a crime than the general population.

Interesting on many levels.

Shoot/Don't Shoot incidents are challenging. To this day I regret not shooting an illegal immigrant whom had just killed one guy, and was walking toward another vehicle, gun in hand, arm outstretched, preparing to kill the three vehicle occupants whom he mistakenly thought were associates of the guy that he had killed three minutes prior. (the three guys in the car were in the wrong place at the wrong time)

My partner and I were on a car stop at Anaheim Street/Cherry Avenue in Long Beach when we saw the suspect run across Anaheim Street with a gun in his hand. We stalked him into a Mexican Bar parking lot and confronted him as he walked toward the vehicle with the three occupants. We had a position of cover behind an old Cadillac and when we confronted him, he dropped the gun immediately.

In retrospect, we realized that he could have very easily gotten off two or three rounds into that vehicle, striking the occupants from point blank range.

Stupid. We should have capped the suspect. We knew that we were in a position of safety and failed to properly react.

But back to the open carry law...

Our latest training update has given us the "green light" to immediately shoot anyone holding a gun, or anything that we perceive as possibly being a gun.

No more shouting, "Police, drop the weapon!" I was amazed as I watched the video. The new updates are the result of "act/react" studies. Very interesting (and sobering) information.

The open carry guys are going to probably win a few small state court judgements, but ultimately, it is going to cost a few of them their lives. The Open Carry guys are going to continue to "push it" and cops are going to begin shooting them.

When this finally gets to the US Supreme Court, the Supremes are going to decide that the "greater public interest" is served by allowing the police to shoot anyone who wears a gun in public and who's hands are not held above their heads with palms open. (or an interpretation strikingly similar to this.)

The alternative is for the Supremes to rule the other way, in which case the police will simply refuse to contact anyone wearing a gun. So if you want to commit ANY kind of offense, simply advertise that you are open carrying, and the police will simply turn the other way. Why would any cop confront anyone open carrying a gun if the cop is not granted a presumption of immunity???

Interesting on many levels.

You regret shooting the guy.

But he didn't. In fact,

Seem to recall you guys already do this and it generally does not go well.

Based on the behaviour of officer Harless and so many of your brethren and even your own comments in various threads on this board what makes you think you guys have earned any presumption of immunity.

Well, considering that there are hundreds of officer involved shootings in the US every year, and that fewer than 1% of them result in prosecution of the officer, I would surmise that there is a presumption of immunity.

If you commit an act and there is a greater than 99% probability that the act will not be found to be in violation of the law, wouldn't that lead any reasonable person to believe that the act was lawful?

You are very unread on this topic.

most ignorant post ever on PARF.

I just gave you an instance in which I should have shot a suspect and did not.

For every instance of an officer involved shooting, there are hundreds of instances when officers make the decision to shoot/not shoot, and decide not to shoot.

Are you trying to say, "presumption of innocence"? Because immunity means that you are immune from prosecution for any unlawful acts that you've committed. I'd like to think that police still have to obey policy (law) when taking citizen's lives.

EDIT: never mind, Denis beat me to it.

I guess if this instance occurred in a mall parking lot at a mall near your home, and a suspect, gun in hand was approaching your wife and child, and the guy was confronted by the cops, and the cops shouted, "Police, drop the gun!" and the guy shot your child AND THEN the police shot the suspect, you would tell the Channel 5 new guy:

1. "The police told the guy to drop the gun but he shot my child anyway. I'm thankful that the police let the guy make that decision before they shot the guy."

2. "The police saw the guy with the gun pointed at my family. I don't know why they didn't just immediately eliminate the imminent threat. Why didn't they just DO SOMETHING instead of waiting for the guy to shoot my kid?"

:D

Huh?

You are the one stating you regretted NOT shooting the guy and now you want to use the fact that you did NOT shoot him as some sort evidence of your control?

Seems to me you felt you made a mistake.

Nope. I mean presumption of immunity.

Exactly like the immunity that we receive when we engage in a police pursuit.

If we follow department procedure (assuming department procedure is not in conflict of current state law), then we have immunity if something "bad" happens.

Don't get upset with me because of your indecision.

It was your mistake.

You scare me on many levels.

The fact that you think that's a good idea scares me more than the fact that they let you carry a gun.

you posted this.

Seem to recall you guys already do this and it generally does not go well, alluding to the fact what the police always already shoot first and that the fallout afterwards is negative.

And your right, I made a mistake by not shooting that suspect whom had already killed another guy just minutes before. Very bad judgement call by me and my partner. (he concurred.)

Is the US at war with itself?

Every situation is unique. Or at least falls into one of several categories. There are times when taking a head shot w/o saying a word would be appropriate and many, many others when a verbal warning to drop a weapon would be deserved before blowing someone away. Once you take someone's life, there is no giving it back. "Sorry, my bad...", doesn't cut it when you've just smoked some guy holding a cell phone who you shot w/o saying a word.

We the citizens need intelligent human beings of sound psych as cops. Badly programmed robots who shoot first in all situations of any "perceived threat" are of no use to anyone.

When did I say always?

Surely you don't deny that LEO's have shot innocent people holding pagers, their wallets, cell phones or simply nothing at all?

Truth be told, the guy in the parking lot, yeah I woulda probably dropped him. But I was not there in the situation so what I woulda, shoulda, coulda done is about as relevant as provolone.

I'm not upset. I'm laughing at the fact that people like you want the police to exercise restraint when dealing with someone else who is in danger, but if it is you (or someone you love) who is in danger, then you expect swift and sure force. :D

BTW, I made thousands of dollars in court OT on that case. If we had killed him, then my W2 would have suffered. See, win/win. :D

smart

others read & heed

And then take into account that hardly any intelligent human beings are willing to do the job. Quite a dilemma, don't you think?

Would you do the job? In Minn? In CA?

Would you want your kid to do the job? Your brother? Your sister?

I'll tell you right now, I have already began programming my 8 year old so that Law Enforcement of ANY KIND is the last thing on her mind when she begins pondering education and career decisions.

Webb, tell us more about Norwood, Ohio. :D

hey SilverWhaleTail, can you PM me a copy of said policy?

I don't like you.

Why would someone who's open carrying ever have their gun in their hand unless using it to defend life or limb? I've never heard of an OC'er misbehaving with a gun. How could you shoot someone for having a gun on their hip and how could you be sure they're not a cop? A holstered gun is a threat to no one. I hear about traffic stops in AZ all the time where the cop (usually DPS, not city or county) disarms the driver and then tries to clear the gun and doesn't know how to operate it. That puts everyone in danger. When no hands are on a gun and it's in a holster, no one is at risk.

Ah, I see. Should we just call you Dredd now? :)

Wow. I want my tax $ back.

Very true in many cases
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The cop is not only a dope, but a stupid a$$ dope as well.

HE NEVER SECURED THE SCENE. If he thought for one minute that there was EVER a security issue, he sure did not act properly.

He essentially ignores a third person in the car, who he can't see, i.e. seems to turn his back on; AND THE COP is blaming the CCW holder??? WTF

That Cop screwed up AND HE KNEW it. His tirade could be viewed as evidence of his knowledge that he blew it on the basics.

No excuse for coming back to the guy and making criminal threats. If he were one of mine I would beat the crap out of him. What a disgrace.

I could never do what cop's do, period. Good cops have a demeanor and presence of mind that can only be admired. What a crap job it could be.

i just googled "Dredd". You got me. :D

because it is EXTREMELY comfortable.

When I am not in my car, I would guess that my right hand or right elbow is on my gun almost all of the time. (the palm of your hand fits very nicely over the top of Bianchi level 3 holsters, while your thumb and fingers drape across the top of the rear of the slide)

It is a weapon retention technique that you unconsciously develop over the years.

After making your way a couple of thousand times through a crowded hip-hop club or concert, you will develop an exact sense of awareness with regard to your primary duty weapon. Keeping a weapon locked into the holster is a full time job.

p.s. I have a crotch rocket. I don't even carry a gun when I ride the thing because I am so paranoid about losing a $1,000 gun (Colt Stainless Commander) from a belt holster while riding. Not worth the hassle.

Well, I never carry a 1911 on the bike because I don't think single action guns are good with gloves on and their trigger guards are not really made for gloves either. However, as a non-LEO, I make it a habit to keep my right hand from every touching the butt of my sidearm when OC'ing. I understand it's totally natural and expected of cops. But it's sort of crossing the line for non-LEO's and I can't imagine a scenario in whcih I'd do it unless the holster were about to fail or fall off.

good points.

But let me ask you this:

Do you think that the average Open Concealed Carry guy is of less than, equal to or greater intelligence than you, Rick ?

I have several guns, including .223's, and would consider myself a "right to bear arms Zealot." I am way right of the Republican Party when it comes to gun rights.

Having said that, my stereotype of the "typical gun nut" includes Confederate front license plates and 365 day food supplies. I've been to gun shows. The people that I see there do not typically strike me as deep thinkers.

I don't see how you don't think that a higher incidence of open carry confrontations with law enforcement is going to lead to more officer involved shootings.

But that's why we have courts. It will work itself out, one way or the other.

I really don't know, since I don't strike up conversations with them. I don't view it as anything noteworthy. Well, there was the guy I saw looking at the frozen food section in the local Albertsons, wearing a Ruger wheel gun with a 2 gallon cowboy hat, boots and talking on his bluetooth. That kind of stood out. And I saw another guy the same day OC'ing an FN 5.7 in the produce section. I think that's way too powerful for carry duty. But I digress.

I've never seen anyone misbehave while open carrying. The folks who OC usually know the law at least as well as the police do (see the guy in NH who schooled the police while OC'ing at the Obama rally). And, while some cops appear to always be looking for a confrontation or to escalate things, I've fortunately never come across one who cared at all that I was carrying. I'm probably up to about 10 police stops while carrying. Never ever had anything more than a "don't show me yours and I won't show you mine." Maybe I'm just lucky that I look and act like a responsible person, know my rights to the letter and am always polite. I really think AZ has a culture of "live and let live, but step out of line and get the hammer."

No, more like not carrying concealed when you're wearing full riding gear that would make it very difficult to draw from concealment.:rolleyes:

Please stay in KA where your gun laws and easy-going police will keep you safe.

I should add that the main reason I'm for OC is that it would avoid situations like TX law, which makes it a felony to even print. Once in a while I have to bend down to tie my shoe or reach up to grab a Barely Legal off the top rack and my shirt might come up and expose the gun I usually have in the small of my back. In TX I could lose my right to own a gun forever because of that. Here it's nothing and I don't have to worry about it.

And as SWT correctly stated (as wrong as I often think he is), is it totally natural and comfortabe to rest your hand on the butt of your sidearm. Totally ok for cops to do this and I'd think nothing of it.