1860's vintage gun info

mb911 · mb911's Garage

I have a double barrel shot gun I think its pre civil war it has E morse jr. stamped on it and thats it. It also has 2 different diameter barrels. This was suppose to be my great grandpa's gun and we think wehave a picture of him with it. But know little more about it. I would like to get an idea of value. I can post pictures tomorrow. Any ideas of where to look for more info ?

tabs · 09-11-2011, 06:32 PM

One of those barrels migh be a rifle barrel and the other a shotgun..this was very common back in the day.. SXS or OU configuration. I presume it is a percussion muzzleloading spoon.

tabs · 09-11-2011, 06:37 PM

There is a Enoch E Morse listed 1808-1867. worked in Avon, Il circa 1850, and in Waukegan, Il from 1860 to 1867. He is known to have made percussion 1/2 stock rifles.

SXSMAN · 09-11-2011, 06:52 PM

Tabs , you're making me moist

.

Ohh behave !

SxS

daepp · 09-11-2011, 07:35 PM

I've seen many .410/.22 Pretty common. could you post the calibers/gauges?

mb911 · mb911's Garage

I will post pictures this afternoon. I am learning about guns right now but yes this a muzzle loader. now the bad news when I was a kid it hung on the mantle and I played with it and broke one of the hammers. I would like to get one I may even fab one. I also would like to know value. As I said I will post some pictures later today thanks.

targa911S · 09-12-2011, 04:51 AM

Finding the correct hammer? Next to impossible. making one? Tough road. Clean it up. Put it back over the mantle. Think of Grandpa when you look at it.

tabs · 09-12-2011, 11:25 AM

I am surprised at U Targa..you didn't suggest contacting some of the Gunsmiths that deal in the Olde Timey percussion rifles either for a replacement or a pair of em that are lying at the bottom of someones old cigar box. I see auction lots of old percussion parts fairly often.

mb911 · mb911's Garage

Here are the shots as I said I would like to at the very least figure out a rough value and I know my mom has the other half of the hammer sitting in a box some where and I know someone that can weld

here they are

fred cook · fred cook's Garage

A sxs with one shotgun barrel and one rifle barrel is generally referred to as a Cape Gun. Not a lot of them were made (in this country, anyway) as the task of regulating the barrels so that they shot to the same point of aim was very difficult. If you really want to get the broken hammer fixed, look around for a gunsmith that makes muzzle loading rifles. He/they should be able to replicate the remaining hammer. Won't be cheap though! Nice rifle, I know that you are proud to have one that has been in the family for so long. I tend to agree with Targa911S about putting it on the wall and enjoying the memories!

targa911S · 09-12-2011, 03:23 PM

That IS very nice and clearly not what we in the trade refer to as a JABC or just another Belgian clunker. Fred is right most of these were made in Belgium and not in the U.S. However the locks do look like they are Belgian. Possibly the barrels too. Not uncommon to import the hardware and make the gun to ones own specs. Welding the original hammer is your best option. I was understanding that it had a missing a hammer and those are really hard to match. Better to replace them both with a matching set if that were the case. I still would not recommend shooting it. Value? I think it's value is directly related to how much you love it. Hard to price things like this that are really one offs.

RPKESQ · 09-12-2011, 03:41 PM

It is just a low grade wall hanger. Fix the hammer if you want to, but it is not worth more than it means to you.

targa911S · 09-12-2011, 03:50 PM

I think I said the same thing only ...nicer... LOL.

tabs · 09-12-2011, 03:59 PM

Those are Backaction Locks which were common in the US in the 19TH century. The Barrrel walls LOOK to be very thick for a period Shotgun. Are you positive they do not have rifling? I t could be a Buck and Ball gun which were smoothbore. Also the sights are more than what would be on a Shotun. Patchbox is unusal.

The Barrels on a shot gun are usually 1/8 of an inch thick. Yes many 19TH centruy gunmakers bought European or English barrels that were Damacus. English Twist..

Also take a picture of the makers name. and tell us about the thickness of the Barrel walls.

I have no doubt it is an American made gun. The locks are USA made and I think it is either a smothbore Buck and Ball or maybe even rifled barrels?

As shotgun right around $300, as a Buck & Ball 750-950, rifled barrels 2000.00

targa911S · 09-12-2011, 05:01 PM

tabs I could show you 100 guns made in Belgium with the identical locks. Proof marks would tell the tale. Ben can you shoot us some pics of any of the markings on the bottom of the barrels and the inside of the locks.?

fred cook · fred cook's Garage

Here is an example of what Targa911S it talking about. This is a picture of the left lock on my great grandfather's shotgun. It is marked W.W. Richards (not THE Westley Richards) and is a Belgian made knockoff of the period.

However, there were back action locks made in the states. The only way to know for certain would be to pull the locks off of the stock and look for proof marks or makers marks. There could be some proofs or marks under the barrels as well. I'm guessing that the barrels come off by driving out a wedge in the forearm. Removing the action screws is something you should not try to do unless you have a set of proper gunsmith screwdrivers to avoid damaging the screws.

Tabs, one reason the barrels are both thick could be to allow for regulating the barrels without having to have an oddly shaped and difficult to make filler piece between the barrels.

RPKESQ · 09-13-2011, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by targa911S

I think I said the same thing only ...nicer... LOL.

Yes, You were gentler and kinder.

I am not known for hiding the medicine underneath a spoonful of sugar and that irritates many people.

I have a terrible bedside manner.

targa911S · 09-13-2011, 09:13 AM

I know that, but I think that's what I like about you. Matter of fact...period.

fred cook · fred cook's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPKESQ

It is just a low grade wall hanger. Fix the hammer if you want to, but it is not worth more than it means to you.

Any American made rifle from this era, especially a shotgun/rifle combo is definitely NOT a "low grade" wall hanger. From what I can see of this combo gun, it is well stocked and the inletting is nicely done. There is normal wear, but no apparent abuse (other than the broken hammer). This piece may not ever go to the field again, but if it were to be sold at a well advertised auction I would expect it to bring several thousand dollars. The key here is that it is American made (most lilkely) and there are many more collectors than nice pieces available. Supply and demand is what it is all about! Would love to see an overall view and a closeup of the rear sights.

tabs · 09-13-2011, 11:46 AM

Upon closer examination of the Bores and the fact that they are of different diameter and the front sight is offset a bit over the smaller diameter bore one is left with the conclusion that this is indeed what is referred to as a Cape Gun.

I would bet the left barrel is rifled and is chamfered in such a way as to be indicative of that fact. . If this is indeed a Cape Gun the value goes to apx 2K give or take a bit. This is not a high grade gun with alot of fancy embellishment but was made to be a working gun. What makes it somewhat unusal is that it is SXS and not OU.

I have no doubt that this is an American made gun, including barrels.

American makers did not only import complete guns from Europe they also imported barrel sets for the shotguns they mfg themselves. In this era barrels were Damacus and this paticular rifel shows no indication of having Damacus barrels.