Planning to become an expatriate

[Tishabet]

The wife and I have been talking for a couple of years about moving outside of the USA and spending some time (2+ years) living and working abroad. We are young (27 and 28) and have no kids, and this seems like an ideal time in our lives to be expatriates for a while. We're planning well ahead; I would estimate we'll stay in the USA for another 18-24 months before pulling the trigger on an international move.

Since the Pelican community is diverse, I figured this might be a good place to solicit first-hand advice and feedback about living/working in specific areas, experience moving overseas, the realities of landing a job on another continent, specific companies we should target for job search, etc.

Some quick background on the wife and me:

Wife: BA in French and Music, speaks fluent French, conversational in Spanish and Italian. Works at VP level in the Cash Management area of a California based commercial bank, handles a major share of their venture capital portfolio clients. Teaches piano in the evenings for fun.

Me: BA in Computer Science and English Literature, conversational in basic French. I work at a Director level for a financial services company where I straddle the product and technology divisions, handle requirements engineering, architecture, product management and development.

We have a "short list" of places we've visited where we'd consider living (mostly influenced by our affinity for the people and culture), as well as a list of places that we'd like to visit over the next couple of years (mostly influenced by favorable economies and likelihood for employment) to see if they have potential.

Currently, the "short list" of places we've been where we could see living includes
The Netherlands
Thailand
Spain
France
Switzerland

Places on the "we should visit there and see if we like it" list include
China (Hong Kong, Shanghai)
Indonesia
Singapore

Any first hand experience doing this kind of thing? Any wisdom to share? Any more places you would add to the "visit there and see if you like it" list?

[nostatic]

Asia is where it is happening (along with India). If I was in a different personal situation I would move to China in a heartbeat. Thailand and Vietnam would be interesting as well.

[creaturecat]

Move to France.
Paris or the south of France.
Forget about China - China IS a communist country.
Keep in mind that Americans are hated, throughout the world,
which can make things difficult.
Pretending to be Canadians seems to work,
as long as you do not have a strong southern accent!

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by creaturecat

Move to France.
Paris or the south of France.
Forget about China - China IS a communist country.
Keep in mind that Americans are hated, throughout the world,
which can make things difficult.
Pretending to be Canadians seems to work,
as long as you do not have a strong southern accent!

Have you been to China lately?

[MRM]

Asia is where it's happening, but I would hesitate to move there, specifically mainland China because of quality of life issues. The polution is horrible, you have to worry about the water supply, everything is crowded, going to the market is an adventure. Some of that is why you become an ex-pat, but I'd steer clear of China. HK is great, but the cost of living is so high that there aren't a lot of companies hiring FNs to work as ex-pats there. Indonesia and Singapore are on the other side of the world from China, and that's on the other side of the world from us. Long flights to get anywhere. My wife has been dodging assignments to China for years.

Plus, your second language is French. Seems like your natural spot is a French speaking country, like France. I suppose Vietnam would work, or Moroco. For my money, I can't imagine a better ex-pat experience than working for a multinational based in Paris. I'm saving for a retirement that includes some significant time in a flat just off the Champs Elysees, within sight of the Arc de Triomphe. I have just the spot picked out.

[scottmandue]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Asia is where it is happening (along with India). If I was in a different personal situation I would move to China in a heartbeat. Thailand and Vietnam would be interesting as well.

Do you speak Chinese? Just curious... how would an English only speaking person get along in Asia?

I also hear the pollution is really bad in China, no first hand experience though.

[The Gaijin]

Originally Posted by creaturecat

Keep in mind that Americans are hated, throughout the world,
which can make things difficult.

Funny!

[MRM]

Interpreters are cheap and pretty in China. An American can get anywhere in the cities. The countryside is harder. I'm more familiar with the north, but the pollution and dust from the desert is overwhelming there. You get tired of basic transport being difficult at best and having to fight to get anywhere. But fortunes are being made there, that is for sure.

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by MRM

Seems like your natural spot is a French speaking country, like France. I suppose Vietnam would work, or Moroco. For my money, I can't imagine a better ex-pat experience than working for a multinational based in Paris. I'm saving for a retirement that includes some significant time in a flat just off the Champs Elysees, within sight of the Arc de Triomphe. I have just the spot picked out.

France is sort of a two-edged sword for us... on the one hand, it's an obvious choice as I speak a little French and my wife speaks fluently as she lived in Paris for 18 months in 2000-2001. So France rates highly on the familiarity front. It also has the economy and business environment to increase the likelihood of me landing a job in my field where I could rely on good old English.
On the other hand, one of the attractions of moving overseas would be the unfamiliar... I would want to learn the local language and culture wherever I lived, and the lack of familiarity is part of the siren song for places like Thailand or China.

[nostatic]

Best way to learn Mandarin is to live there. Mass transportation is pretty good in the major cities and cabs are cheap as well. I didn't find the pollution to be bad in either Shanghai or Beijing but I hear that I got lucky with timing in Beijing. I didn't like the vibe of Beijing that much though. I would live in Shanghai for a year or so without hesitation. Hong Kong is an amazing place as well.

I was always treated warmly in China. Some people either haven't been there and like to perpetuate stereotypes, or maybe they did go there and were treated how they treated others

Knowing French could help the transition in Vietnam and maybe Thailand. Haven't been to either yet, but know people who have and know some that live in both.

[Seahawk]

[QUOTE=creaturecat;3933259]Keep in mind that Americans are hated, throughout the world, which can make things difficult.[QUOTE]

Funny, I've been on ten international trips in the last two years...zero issues.

I'll second China but also include Australia/New Zealand. I have spent a lot of time in both countries and I would live in either place without hesitation.

Best of luck! I think you guys are doing the exact right thing.

[silverc4s]

Don't intend to open a can of worms here, but there are some 21st century issues with being an American Expat.
In the 70's and 80's I lived and worked in Singapore, Taiwan, Brasil, Chile, and travelled extensively through Asia and South America at the same time. I am older now, and I recognize that that makes me more risk averse, and less willing to live in a semi-bohemian way just to be somewhere that I want to be, but there are still some realities to deal with.
Americans are pretty much hated in the Middle East, radiating into the Far East and into most of North and Central Africa these days. We are not exactly loved in most European countries either, and in most of these areas your safety could actually be an isssue at any time. [Kind of like walking through East LA after dark...]

I would recommend looking into Central and South American countries, where your skills may be very marketable and the lifestyle and quality of life are very nice overall. Chile and Argentina come to mind today, although that world is a continually changing mosaic of haves and have nots...

I would also try to secure the position for at least one of you here. prior to departure, you will not be an expat if you go there first & secure work after arrival.

Other areas that have always interested me, are New Zealand & Australia although I have no idea if you can easily get situated there these days...

Good luck, have fun, and stay safe.

PS The Canadian idea is probably a good one - you can both learn to speak Quebecois (sp) pretty easily i imagine...

[MRM]

Americans are generally treated like royalty in China.

[nostatic]

You think Americans are safer in Central/South America? Ok...

New Zealand has a point system for emigration. The older you get, the harder it is. Last time I did the calculation I could go there providing I had a job lined up. Depends on your education, age, experience, etc. Not sure about Australia but it might be the same deal.

I have been to China 4x in the last two years. I never felt at risk. I wouldn't go to the Phillipines (or at least step outside Manilla), and parts of Indonesia are sketchy.

[Tobra]

Southern Europe would be nice, your French would make it much easier to pick up a bit of Italian or Spanish.

Pacific Rim is where it is at though, Vietnam would be nice, S Korea would be nice too.
I would encourage you to do stuff like this when you can. When you are old and gray, you will not regret what you have done, you will regret not doing what you could have done.

[Rick Lee]

I would move to China tomorrow if not for my guns and car hobby and wife that doesn't want to move back there. It's a magical place and you can live like a king for very little money. It would be hard to live there and build up any kind of savings, though, unless you were making an American salary with a western company. It's not easy to get around if you don't know any Mandarin, but it's an adventure and I was treated like royalty everywhere, in the countryside too. You should have seen some of those Tibetans' eyes when a friend and I just knocked on a door and asked them to cook for us for some money. That country is one non-stop adventure for westerners. Yes, the pollution is pretty bad, but you just don't jog ourdoors in the big cities.

I worked and went to school in Germany for almost two years. It was fun too, but I couldn't live there again. I swear, in many ways you have more freedom in China than in any western country. You just have to experience it for yourself.

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by silverc4s

I would recommend looking into Central and South American countries, where your skills may be very marketable and the lifestyle and quality of life are very nice overall. Chile and Argentina come to mind today, although that world is a continually changing mosaic of haves and have nots...

I would also try to secure the position for at least one of you here. prior to departure, you will not be an expat if you go there first & secure work after arrival.

I had pretty much overlooked South America, although now that I think about it I know someone who used to live in Buenos Aires and raves about it.

Securing a position before we move is an important consideration for us, and seems to be a potential sticking point... my (brief) research on sites like expatica.com seems to indicate that, at least in some countries, it's nearly impossible to secure a position from outside the country. For example, I was researching jobs for expats in Amsterdam, and between the legalities and visa issues it seems that you really need to move there and secure all sorts of paperwork before a company is even willing to interview you. That's a heck of a leap of faith... I would be MUCH more comfortable having a solid offer/start date in place before packing up an moving.

[Tobra]

So go for a bit on a "vacation", do your paperwork/secure employment, come back, get your affairs in order and go man go

Do you speak Portugese?

[tcar]

Good friend moved to Thailand for 2 years. Taught school (English speaking).

Said it was wonderful. Played golf. People were wonderful, friendly...

Wish I'd gotten my ........ together to visit while she was there.

[Tishabet]

Originally Posted by Tobra

So go for a bit on a "vacation", do your paperwork/secure employment, come back, get your affairs in order and go man go

Do you speak Portugese?

Nope, no foreign language ability here other than my basic French; definitely a limiting factor in terms of potential employment in most countries, although I would make a point of learning the language once I had relocated.

The "vacation" idea is essentially what we're doing with our "we should visit there and see if we like it" list, and depending on the regulations etc. it might make sense to try to line up interviews on any potential visit. That being said, I've read that in some countries you are looking at weeks or months in country before you can get the correct paperwork lined up. I'm hoping that type of situation is rare.

Due to my lack of foreign language skills (the wife could definitely work in an all-French environment; I could probably order dinner) the most pragmatic move might be to try to join a US-based corporation at a foreign office where English is spoken. One of my coworkers, for example, worked for KPMG in The Netherlands for two years and never had to learn Dutch (a missed opportunity, IMHO) because English was the de facto office language.