What makes us grieve?
 

When I was younger I went to lots of weddings.
Now I go to lots of funerals.

This is a serious question and I'm looking for insight from others and didn't want to muck up other threads.

Dying is a part of life but I often wonder what makes us grieve. Why do we feel so sad when someone dies?
Does it stem from the survival instinct? It seems instinctual but there are cultures who do not treat death the same way, so is grieving a learned trait or is not grieving learned? I dunno.

It doesn't seem to really be that you're immediately missing someone when you grieve, I've seen people grieve for someone they haven't seen in years or have never met.
Yet they still feel the strong emotion of sadness. It has to be more than simply regretting lost opportunity.

I've tried to make sense of it and understand what it is about how our brains are wired that makes us so sad when confronted with the death of others. It doesn't seem logical to me but I've felt it too even though I'm an insentitve bastage.

Maybe that's one of those things we're not supposed to understand.

Grief is vulnerability.

Grief is taught vulnerability.

There are cultures who did not grieve, but celebrated.

I think that individual grief is universal. I also think that grief is a manifestation of our own loss OR our sympathetic response to another's loss. I feel grief over Lisa's passing not because of my personal loss (minimal), but the effect of her death on her husband and children , i.e., the effect my wife's death would have on me and my kids. Death confirms that we, and those we depend on, will die.

I doubt Grief is learned. How you grief as a society may be, but individual grief is just to intense and spontaneous to not be a hard wired human emotion.

I'm guessing it reinforces the survival and communal instincts.

Timely question Sammy. Yesterday was a tough one for me!! I got up and first thing got the news about Lisa. Boy did that get to me, to a degree that surprised me. Don't
get me wrong. She seemed a true friend even tho I hadn't met her in person. Her writing talent and ability to share herself and family were exceptional. Making it easy to connect with her. Her humor was classic.

But as the day went on things didn't smooth out for me, in fact it got worse.
Then It occurred to me that part of what I was feeling may be deferred grief from the passing of my sister in law. She passed about 2 weeks ago and also got a late diagnosis of cancer, and passed in about 6 weeks.
And up to yesterday I hadn't really grieved for her passing completely. So I think that there was a lot of repressed pain and grief in my heart. It all welled up for me yesterday and flowed out. Leaving me feeling like a rung out dish rag.

So today I am once again working on this issue of death and grieving, It is a part of the natural process of life. And I am trying to get a handle on why it can hit me so hard, even more so as I get older. Intellectually I understand this and accept it, but emotionally I'm certainly not celebrating!!

I am starting to think this may be part of my life's work thru the latter part of mine. To get a handle on this.

Any one else chewing on this issue? Got insight?

Cheers Richard

Yes, a timely question. And a deep one. Frankly Sammy, I had not expected a philosophical question of this magnitude from you though you seem to have a good grip on the potential sources of this grieving 'instinct,' if you will.

I think pain and suffering are a big part of the human experience, and I think they are given to us as a way of forcing us to connect with one another. As presented in the film Shadowlands, "pain is God's way of waking a sleeping world." It forces out of our cocoons and makes us love one another. Life is not safe, and it always puzzles me when people try to make it that way. It is not. The ultimate proof is death. The great equalizer. And so, it is vitally important that we share and connect and empathize with one another with the time we have. That is why we are here. To love.

Good input guys, thanks and keep it coming.

I was really interested in John's post, and I interpreted it as death reminds us of out own mortality and vulerability and it kinds of scares us. If that interpretation is not right John, please correct.

Supe's post has me thinking too, but I'm gonig to have to read it a few more times and ponder a while.

The reason that "vulerability" thought interested me is it kind of explains why I view death differently that some.
Sure I feel saddened but I usually don't see death as a tragedy.
Maybe my positive expectation for afterlife comes into play, but I don't want to PARF this up so enough of that.

I feel sad for the friends and relatives of someone who passes, but I think it's kind of a sympathetic thing. they're sad so I share a little of the sadness.
But deep down I am not sad for the one who passed at all. Just for others who are sad.

Understanding that and understanding why I don't react as strongly as some will help to make sense of it.

It's kind of like being forced to accept something you really can't accept: you go through denial, sandness, resentment, and eventually acceptance. A whole slew of irrational emotions all balled up.

Sammy,

We all have basic feelings. They are: love, joy, surprise, sad, fear, and anger. We have all of them. Culturally, we may be taught fear is bad or repress any of the others. Fear can be perceived as a sign of weakness. Sad maybe percieved as depression or other negative mental issues.

The fact is we need all of them. Warriors are afraid before they go to battle. It is how they get an adrenilan rush and get the courage to fight in battle. The issue is: how you cope and making sure any of these emotions doesn't get the best of you.

Anger can turn into rage or violence, Sadness can turn into depression, fear is a sign of weakness or to a man, not manly.

Sadness can come from anything. The loss of a loved one, loss of a child or parent. Sadness can come from failing at something, regret. Each moment of sadness has an intensity that varies from person to person and the situation that brought the sadness.

Feelings aren't analytical, they can't be debated. They need to be understood and accepted w/o judgement. Those feelings are yours: who am I to decide what and how you should feel.

If sadness is brought upon by a loos of a love one, grieving is the natural next step. There are several stages of this feeling that are listed below:

The stages Kubler-Ross identified are:

Denial (this isn't happening to me!)

Anger (why is this happening to me?)

Bargaining (I promise I'll be a better person if...)

Depression (I don't care anymore)

Acceptance (I'm ready for whatever comes)


Where many get hung up is they get stuck in the process. This,to me, is where the feeling gets the best of the person largly because they haven't resolved the feeling.


My parents died, I have got divorced, I have a son who has issues. Each one of these events brought different levels of sadness and grief. I worked thru all of them. The saying that time heals is quite true but not because of it's length but how long it took to go thru the process.


Only you can answer why you feel more sad about people, places or things that have come across your path. I would not labor on why it affects you one way more than another or why you may feel more sad than somone else. It's your feeling - no one has the right to judge you.

Just make sure it doesn't paralize you.

Just to clarify, this was not intended to be self-analytical but it's starting to turn that direction. We need to steer it back to "people" and not "person".

I'm trying to understand a human reaction to death which seems natural to most, at least in this culture.
By understanding why people do what they do I can then possibly understand my reactions better, but that's a side benefit. Not looking for free psychoanalysis.

This is an attempt to better understand a characteristic of people in general.
I'm hoping there's a reasonable clinical explanation but I haven't found it yet.

Maybe it's one of those "that's just how it is, accept it" things but I hope not.

And for the record, I'm a cold-hearted insensitive SOB so let's keep that in mind ;)

For the people closest to us, it's withdrawal - our loved ones create a chemical response in us and grieving begins in the absence of that specific stimuli. What I've noticed about wakes is that grieving is ameliorated by people sharing experiences about the deceased, recreating the feeling we get from their presence.

This is different than mourning, which is a learned and/or intellectual response to the death of a person you know, and can take whatever form the surrounding culture takes, be it sadness, celebration, or chopping the person up and feeding them to large carrion birds.

Just my thoughts. It doesn't come up often, as the Browns are darn near immortal (everyone makes 100, easy).

I said it in a PM and I'll say it here for all to read. I am more than a little impressed that Sammy doesn't have me on his "Ignore" list and in fact responds to my post with respectful consideration. That is, after some of the remarks I have made to/about him. Shows class, in my view.

I too do not feel sorry for the departed. Again, probably because of my belief system. But I do think of them when they were with us, and experience severe melancholy for my personal loss of not having them in my life any longer. Plus, I think death and consequent grieving is indelibly stamped with the stark reality of death. The knowledge that death WILL come for us, and WILL come for everyone. It's like going to a sports event with the certain knowledge that an athlete will detach an ACL. You feel for them, and it's not a good feeling. Same with all my fellow humans. They will all die, but they will not all accept it or prepare or understand. It's a very scary thing, almost regardless of your spiritual compass, and its impact is the most universal aspect of life. It underscores our pain, our responsibility, our decisions, our lifestyles and our destiny. Our essence.

The last page of a thread from two years ago: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/off-topic-discussions/504724-my-wife-died-5.html

Eloquent posts from Bob about his wife and daughter, and the grieving process.

Very thoughtful and insightful.

_

My thought is that a life well lived is marked by many unique and wondrous "experiences". While these events may slow in frequency as we age, while we live, we still "have them" in our minds to reflect on, remember and relish as we live out our days.

When someone we have developed affection, love or respect for dies, the end of those events has occurred as well their individual smile, twinkle of the eye or body language manners which instantly conjure up the memory of these "events". Viscerally we know this and realize all we have after the death of someone close to us, is the imperfect memories gathered over the years.

Early in life, every day is a new experience with expectation of wondrous and magical things happening in a future we can dream of and plan for. A life well lived, yet expired, in hindsight is but a movie of those past experiences with no potential for new adventures.

How can a sentient being not morn the end of the "dance"?

This question about grief is timely for me.

Eulogy to my friend:

10/19/11

Joe was my friend. And it is all his fault. However, Joe being Joe and him being my friend I must say to you all he would be appalled at our sadness, at our profound grief. I did so want my last memory of Joe to be as he had always been: confident, caring, strong and righteous. I could share stories of his humor, of his dedication to the service of others, of his love for his son R*** and the honor and devotion as he cared for his dying mother. I could describe his laughter and his frustrations. I could describe his courage and his humility, his wry sarcasm and his weakness for pork rinds and beer. I could relate to you all so much more. But in these last few days I learned more about Joe than the 20 or so odd years that he was my friend. I learned he was an Eagle Scout and that he first fractured his nose catching people jumping from a burning building. I learned from his brothers J***, and D*** and M*** that Joe was many things but above all Joe was loved. He was loved in a most serious and silent way. He was loved for his professionalism, his insatiable curiosity and voracious quest for knowledge. He was loved for his reverence for nature and for his delicate discipline. He was loved for his frugality and pragmatism. He was loved for his love of Homer (Simpson, not the poet). I did not want to know Joe but he persisted and so he became my friend. My friend whose memory I so wanted to be him piloting a boat down Crooked River as deftly as he maneuvered his car down the mean Chicago streets. But alas, my last memory of Joe will be a horror of decay, helplessness and fear. It was not because he was my friend that I chose to hold his hand tight and lead him to peace with his last breath. It was not because he was my friend that I so desperately loved that I could not let go of his withered hand even in death. It was not because he was my friend. It was because I was his.

Sammy-I think we grieve because we all realize that one day, the person we grieve for, will be us lying there.:(

My theory is people grieve because that's the way it has always been done - after loss of life. It's tradition.

But in certain cultures, there is much celebration to honor the departed....which is the way I prefer to look at things.

I sometimes ask those who are sad about the death of another person - "Is this the way (insert departed's name here) would want you to feel?"

Well, in a perfect world, the answer is "Hell no!"

So yeah.....I think it's tradition that makes many folks grieve. Not everyone though....

I think you are wrong. Celebration is cultural, grieving is natural. Ever have a couple dogs and one dies? Animals grieve. Grieving is depression plain and simple.

I think we are hard-wired that way as part our survival instinct.

Death is always bad, and we try to avoid it. When others die, we also feel it strongly and negatively. It's the thing we want to avoid, and the deaths of others remind us of this fact. Hence grief.

In time someone will discover the biochemical reaction that results in grief.

I don't know of any cultures that celebrate death in a "happy, happy" way. Sure some mark death differently from others. Baptists have somber funerals. Unitarians have "celebrations of life". But the people involved all grieve. Because death is involved. And death is something to be avoided.

Good point!

But how would you know it is not loneliness rather than grieving?

I also believe that certain personality types enjoy feeling down or sad (or even angry) much of the time - like someone who is always pessimistic and who always looks at the glass half empty instead of half full. I guess for them they love the whole concept of grieving because of the negative aspects. I know it's amazing that there are those types of personalities but I have seen it in many many cases....

One of my theories is they prefer to be very negative for dramatic effect - to seek more attention for themselves.

Very interesting behaviour.....

I'm not so certain they are not the same. Grieving may just be a thoughtful lonesomeness. When I grieve I have constant images and memories of the departed. Images that remind me I will never experience that person again. Loniless is is a feeling that someone in your life is missing. Someone that provided company and play.

Celebration requires much more cortex...

True enough and some good points Lube....guess it depends on the context too. Is one of my dogs grieving when I take the other one out for a drive and not her? Or is she just sad and lonely?

Guess that's why I always take them both......:p

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1319769459.jpg

... “Unease, anxiety, tension, stress, worry — all forms of fear — are caused by too much future, and not enough presence. Guilt, regret, resentment, grievances, sadness, bitterness, and all forms of non-forgiveness are caused by too much past, and not enough presence” .......
Eckhart Tolle

I'd like to post something light-hearted but the spirit isn't moving me that way.
A few years ago I started noting in my database (is that word still used?) when I read in the obituary section of the local paper when a customer of mine had died. I was thinking of starting a thread here asking how many aquaintances of the members had 'passed' and perhaps drawing some type of conclusion from the numbers but I hadn't come up with a suitable point of discussion to begin a topic.
I'm not good at grieving (or celebrating).
None of us are going to get out of this world alive.
I guess all I have to offer is that we are fragile creatures. I never say I'm having a bad day.
Jim

Sadness

People are different in their responses to the passing of someone close to them or in the case of someone here whose presence on the board we enjoyed and had become accustomed to. I've had several friends pass on and my parents both. In the case of my parents, I have to say I didn't feel much - at least consciously. Their relationships with their children weren't close. With friends I feel sad about the fact the relationship with that person will never be experienced again and the friendship and past shared experiences are gone. With my parents, I felt sad about the passing of another cycle of a generation with all the experiences, accomplishments, and bonds passing on. I mean this in a general way in terms of coming to the realization that generation's wheel of time has gone full circle. I think both of these things have some influence on the grieving process.

Death is loss - permanent loss.

Because of this I can think of no situation in which it'd be normal to celebrate a death of anyone other than an enemy who will not be missed. For a loved one? Loss is always bad. Love is rare and the people in this world who touch us are equally rare. When one of them is lost, it is a setback and IMHO not something to celebrate at all.

Certainly there are situations which make the person's passing more acceptable (if they were suffering and it has now ended, etc) but I don't ever see losing a loved one (or even an acquaintance whose company I valued) as a good thing. Our worlds become less rich and less interesting and only more empty and lonely. For this reason, the grief is natural, as nobody wishes that.

I agree with what several others have said here... death makes us sad because of the loss we feel.

We have sad feelings because of loss throughout life. There are things in our childhood like our best friend moving away when their dad gets transferred... one of our favorite toys is lost or damaged... a beloved pet dies or runs away and is never seen again.

In one's teen years (and beyond) a painful breakup can produce the same sadness. Later, maybe the loss of a job or getting passed over for a promotion... all of these losses produce grieving.

It is important not to get stuck at any of the stages of grieving. It is also important to realize that there is/can be somewhat of a cumulative effect and losses can be progressively more painful and difficult to process because they bring up a subconscious memory of the pain of past losses.

Get ahold of this small book... it's only about 60-70 pages: Good Grief: A Constructive Approach to the Problem of Loss by Granger Westberg. A friend gave it to me a coupla weeks after my first wife died. It's considered to be one of the best and most concise on grief.

I don't remember if the book speaks to this, but I think it may also be possible to become somewhat numb and distanced from grieving if a person has had an inordinate amount of loss in their life... kind of like a PTSD caused by a very difficult life, not necessarily brought on by the stress of war. I would guess that it could probably be worked out with a lot of therapy, but it may take a long time.

Maybe. However, it's interesting that hospital studies have long shown that doctors and nurses say that their most religious terminal patients are the most terrified of dying.

Yes.

Strange you should mention this, but I have personally observed a similar phenomenon in the deaths of various friends and relatives. The ones with the really deep faith fell apart at the end—while the ones without faith were relatively sanguine.

My experience is anecdotal—and I wasn't aware of the studies—but it has always puzzled me.

My thoughts exactly. Loneliness IS the root cause.

Charlie (my much-loved white/orange cat) died a few years ago while I was asleep (a rotten thing to wake up to). Apparently he had a heart condition and according to the vet, likely just keeled over and was gone - bang, just like that. No warning - not uncommon for animals with that condition. As painful as the experience was for me, the image that will always be burned into my mind was that when I found him, his companion cat (Bonnie, the fluffy gray one) was standing next to him with a clearly hurt expression. There is no doubt in my mind that she knew what had happened and she was clearly sad about it and was grieving - her action and expression was definitely saying "goodbye". It tears my heart thinking about it even today. The loss was bad enough for me (he was an awesome companion) but to see her expression was enough to almost make a grown man cry, because I couldn't do anything to make her hurt any less - and she undoubtedly had a unique bond with him.

Animals definitely are capable of emotion and perception, as well as communication and higher-level thought. I have absolutely no doubt of this and have witnessed it first-hand on more than one occasion. It probably depends somewhat on the species (higher mammals = most likely, amphibians, reptiles, etc. not very likely due to primitive brain anatomy), but I have no doubt that these things are felt and experienced by higher mammals like dogs, cats, chimps/primates, probably even whales and dolphins...

Bingo.

I have seen that as well. I guess those that have a deep religious bend tend to be like that because of some serious insecurity. That ones that don't work that way seem to have made peace a long time ago and accept what awaits.

When my Mother died of cancer what I felt was not grief, rather sadness at the death of my magnetic north, someone who had been the arbitrator of my life's many conflicting priorities, the person I could always turn to, who's opinions mattered...I was sad for the loss of us, that I couldn't love her as before.

When you know love and the greatness of the being loved I find it difficult to grieve the passing of a loved one. Death is, after all, inevitable. Loves emotions are precious and resolute and everlasting long after death. My sadness is in knowing the opportunity to share life and create laughter and love, memories with that person is gone.

When I held my beloved lab Earl in my arms and the Vet administered the shot that would end Earl's life I didn't grieve for Earl, we had far too many days of joy and field work, of cold noses and muddy paws...I was sad for the loss of us, the team.

During the days after my Mother died we began the task of moving forward, trying our best to deal with the profound loss...we began to tell stories, recount the good and funny moments of our families life, of which my Mother was the fulcrum.

We laughed and began to face our uncertain futures, each of us no doubt better for having known her love.

Without much erudition...
What makes us grieve?
I don't know...we grieve as a result of feeling the primal pain of loss.
It hurts...it hurts real bad.
Then we notice that, even if we can't explain why we grieve, eventually it's not as freuquent and as deep.
Watch a dog grieve...they do it right.

My experience has been the exact opposite.

Death is a traumatic experience no matter what the religious inclination because it is personally unknown. We may have sat with people who have died, but that is very different from going through it in the first person sense. As a result when it is finally our turn, it can be scary. But in that regards it's not much different than passing through other stages in life like marriage, medical treatments and other things. Until we experience something first hand, it's difficult for people not to be nervous about it. The thing about death is that most people don't have the opportunity to go through the process twice.

Going back to the point of thread, I have to agree with heel-n-toe -- I think that it's the loss that drives grieving. Whether we believe that the person has gone to Heaven, or just stopped -- either way that person is no longer around to provide the experiences that we enjoyed from, and with them previously. In that regards it most likely is similar to withdrawal. But I don't subscribe to the belief that personal relationships are merely chemical interactions. Going to see your favorite comic while grieving will not fill-up the void left by the deceased -- no matter how funny the comic is. The same applies to rebound relationships, they just don't fill the hole in your life.

I don't think I could ever express what grief is to me and my wife. We are very rarely in the same place at the same time as far as the stages of grief go.

I find with me it seems to be a bit of self pity. In the beginning a lot of wanting to feel sorry form myself and family. Its only been 4 years, but I will get a handle on this.