Home window replacement q's....
 

Marvin or Pella... Vinyl or Fiberglass?

We live in a modest home and it would be lipstick on a pig to spend $2,000 per window so I'm looking at these ranges and choices...

Fiberglass is about $150 more per window on average. I've heard the pitch from the salespeople about strength, etc.. is fiberglass really that much better?

Any real gotcha's or tips from those that have been there? I get 100 more questions for every one that is answered.

Thanks!

fiberglass? . . n'no, you want carbon fiber windows.

Seriously, IMO, the design will trump material used.

Every window is a compromise in some way, so just pick what looks right for your balance. ...which has the features you want at the right price. (keep in mind that the energy performance sucks on all - compared to a well insulated wall)

i agree with island.

depends on the application. if the house has old wooden double hung windows, there really isnt a better option than Marvin tilt-pacs. i got to where i could walk up to a window with a prybar, take it out, put in the new one in 45 minutes. great window, but they really need careful measuring.

Vinyl are fine, get the crank out type or the sliders that tilt in for cleaning. Get the low E option.
If you use spray foam for insulation use low expansion foam, try to tap into the vapor barrier using the red VB tape.
If your getting them installed watch them so they don't skip the VB step.

We re-windowed our house last year.

We went with a firm that gave us a mix of windows, both in construction materials and look. The energy savings have been excellent.

Years ago my house has original single pane aluminium sliders. Drafty as heck.

Me, being a cheap SOB, went to the home despot and ordered a bunch of retro-fit replacemet aluminium dual pane windows, average cost was around $175 each.
Took a whole afternoon to install them myself.

Then I bought a new vinyl 8' double-pane slider, prolly should have farmed that one out cause it was a struggle to do that myself, but I got it done in one day for $850. that thing was heavy!

I had 4 of those loovered "motor home" type of windows near the front entrance, bout 3' wide and 8' tall. Bought some box section double pane 6 over 6 windows for about $200 each. That took a whole day to install them because of the framing and mouldings etc.

Bottom line is I upgraded every window in my house (except for the one in the master bath) for less than the price of one of them top of the line fancy windows.

Now iffn I lived in Alaska or Wisconsin I might need the argon filled, fancy triple pane stuff but in So Cal what I got is more than good enough and it makes the house a whole lot more comfortable and quiet.

I looked into re-windowing our house about three years ago. I was quoted between $50K and $60K for all windows from Pella and Home Depot. Granted, I have a lot of windows and a couple large, oddly shaped windows, but I thought the quotes were way too much. They said the law requires tempered glass for all windows and sliding doors near the floor, which raises the cost significantly. This was using vinyl by the way.

I just got a quote for 18 windows and 1 french door in vinyl for $16,000. I had another quote for $22,000 for the same windows and door. I tried to compare the differance between fiberglass, vinyl and al clad but theres not a lot of info in the brochures or on the websites to make a educated guess as to whats better. Several of my neighbors have had the vinyl for a few years and report no problems with them. I guess its just a turkey shoot and I will just pick the low bid.
Jerry

I have done a lot of these in a previous life as a construction guy. Vinyl is fine. Price should be < $300 per window installed. Aluminum capping is extra if necessary. Insulation around the perimeter is important. You can spend a lot more if status and prestige is important to you of course.

Our vinyl windows...
 

5 years or so ago went replaced our original double-hung wood windows with vinyl clad double hung with the munton bars. They look like the originals, but operate correctly and keep the cold air out during the winter. Replacing the doors and windows really helped and I would get the fiberglass doors instead of the steel doors we have, but the vinyl windows are great.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1320706818.jpg

I did my house myself about 10 years ago with all new windows, crestline as I remember, casing and all. Wood with alum clad outside 2 pane gas filled low-e and love them. They look just like the guys above, tilt in so the wife can clean them all by herself!

Might be false economy if you air-condition your house.

Yep, mine tilt in and I clean them with Invisible Glass, then wax them with Rejex once or twice a year.

Chris, you know I'm the window guy around here. I sorta retired after 25 years of installing windows, patio doors and entry doors. I'll get to Dennis in a minute.

Vinyl is the standard now. Some are a little better than others. Out here in the West I like Milgard because they do come out on service calls w/o b!tch!ng about it. They make a fiberglass unit raw and factory painted. The FG box is 4.25 inches minimum so I can't use them very often because 2 x 4 framing doesn't give me any room to trim them out. They are double the cost of any window Dennis would use at his pricing.

There are other considerations. Retrofit windows usually end up being an odd size, not a "call out" size. Marvin, Andersen and the rest all charge huge to build other than catalog sizes. The vinyl and FG guys build to the 1/8 th inch at no extra cost.

Generally speaking, a dual pane LowE with argon is good enough. That will get you the equivalent of R4. The window people don't talk in "R" values because as Glenn said, windows are one of the poorer performers in your energy envelope.

Now to address this post. 300 is really low for an average cost installed by others. 400 to 450 is more like it. Sears, HD and Lowes will hit you much higher before trying to "close" the deal. I tear them a new ass on every estimate. And I don't offer AL trim because that just traps moisture and insects behind a false front. If you don't want to see any more painted wood, there are other ways.

PM me for details. I haven't talked to a R Gruppe guy since I dropped out. :)

Speaking from experience, DO NOT waste your time with a brand of window called "Penquin". They might be The Best and Finest Windows In All The Land; you'll pay double, maybe triple for them compared to more pedestrian offerings (Milgard, Pella, Anderson etc,) but first you'll sit through a hard sell that'll remind you of one of Dante's circles of hell.

I went with Pella, I'm working through the whole house in yearly batches, and I am very happy so far.

Pella makes a fantastic sliding glass door ("door wall" here in MI). Our vinyl replacement windows were made by a company called "Sunrise" in Monroe, MI and we're happy with them. My next-door neighbor and I installed them, he did the work and I held stuff.... Scaffolds make the work much easier, especially on the 2nd floor!

My house has aluminum framed impact glass. I don't know if this stuff would pass code where you are, but these vastly improve the security of your house. Miami-Dade county certified 5/8 inch thick laminated safety glass, they are certified to withstand the impact of a 3 foot section of 2X4 at 155 mph....without intrusion. VERY good sound insulation, very tough, very heavy- I have an impact glass slider leading to my lanai, standard 80 inches high, and it weighs around 200 pounds.

Good luck, make sure you pull a permit-

N

My house has aluminum framed impact glass. I don't know if this stuff would pass code where you are, but these vastly improve the security of your house. Miami-Dade county certified 5/8 inch thick laminated safety glass, they are certified to withstand the impact of a 3 foot section of 2X4 at 155 mph....without intrusion. VERY good sound insulation, very tough, very heavy- I have an impact glass slider leading to my lanai, standard 80 inches high, and it weighs around 200 pounds.

Good luck, make sure you pull a permit-

N

Aluminum frames don't work too well in the colder climes. The aluminum carries the cold right into the house, like the steel doors do. Our neighbor has older aluminum frame windows and they are terrible in MI. I'm sure they're good in FL, since they are more heat stable than vinyl.

Replaced with vinyl a few years ago and couldn't be happier. I was surprised by how cheap it was considering.

Hey,
I have two experiences that lend some value here. 1) I worked for Pella for one year of horrible under-employment. 2) I am on a BOD with the smartest HVAC people in Oregon.

When I was at the Pella factory, I was very impressed with Fiberglass and have always considered that product as one I would buy. Why? Vinyl has a limited life span and is supposed to break down in UV light. Also, vinyl can't be painted. I think all white frames looks like crap. I will admit that I am sort of a snob and most people think white vinyl is fine. I just don't.

I have some old crappy aluminum windows on my house. I have been remodeling this place for the last 6+ years and have dropped serious coin in it. Did I replace windows? No. My HVAC friends tell me that the thermal loss of crap windows will never pencil out. Air leaks? Seal them up! Windows? VERY limited return on investment.

That is my opinion. Good luck. You will be fine with vinyl if you wish. The fiberglass product is supposed to be fantastic.

Larry

If the window is less then 30" off the ground, then you need tempered. It should not be a huge cost difference.

I push for Integrity. Marvin's builder's window. Wood inside, fiberglass outside. I have them throughout my own house. Unless, the windows are spec out, I really like the Integrity series window. They are size specific and no exceptions. Cheaper compare to Marvin or Pella. I think they are just as good. I too do not like white frame. FG is paintable.

Thanks for all the great info guys. Zeke, I did remember that, but hate to pester anyone directly.

We're looking at a range of $500 per window installed for vinyl to upwards of $950 for the higher end ones.

Double "wall" with argon and grates inside the panes are a must for us along with a few small other upgrades. The most basic on the nicer manufacturers are $400ea. I'm doing FULL replacement not pocket install because of some issues from the previous windows, I want the frames replaced. (leakage/damage related).

I don't want any outside wood. Spells maintenance. Means work for me down the line and i want as maintenance free as possible.


The sales guys pushed fiberglass because "it's stonger" but uh... in my mind the window isn't a structural element of the house, so as long as it's metal reinforced, does that really matter?

I believe the code for tempered glass in Ca is within 18 inches of the floor or adjacent to a door.

FG will last longer than vinyl as per a post above, so in that sense is stronger

vinyl is also a high pollution product (affects people who live near the plastics chemical plant - if you care)

and vinyl outgasses vinyl chloride into your house, a toxic gas (got kids? how well is th house sealed?)

FG may give the house better resale value if you don't stay long enuff for the vinyl ones to start cracking (more common in Calif. than Ill.)

seems to me that vinyl windows also stick and don't slide well

Is it a stucco house or is it wood siding? some other material? $200 for the window, $3-350 for the installation is too little (CA pricing) if it includes stucco or waterproof work. is that including plaster / drywall work and trim work on the interior of the home?

It's been awhile, but tempered windows go in the stairwells, around the tub if within (60"?) drain, w/in 24" radius of doors. All others are required to be tempered if within 18" of the floor, greater than 9 sf and one more item. All 3-4 conditions must be met, not just one, to be tempered.

Sorry, it is 18".

Zeke - what is being done today in place of capping with aluminum? My neighbor had new windows installed last year and the contractor capped the old wood with aluminum.

STRENGTH - folks the window is not a structural member of your house. It just holds the glass in place. A reasonable quality vinyl made by a known manufacturer will be fine. No one really cares if the replacement windows are fiberglass or "CARBON FIBER" :) They do care if they are replaced for cleaning and insulation matters.

the few retrofit window jobs I've done we used Milgard windows. They had a manufacturing plant down in Hollister so we ordered them direct and picked them up at the their facility. I remember saving thousands of dollars cutting out the middle man and installation was fairly straight forward.

AL windows now have a thermal break in the frame.

No.

Yes.
Nothing new on the capping, I just don't like the look or the negatives.

Strength does not imply that the window can or will carry a load.

BTW, A930Rocket is spot on with the code. The numbers are 18, 24 and 60. But I don't understand the part about multiple conditions. Any one of those conditions call for tempered glass. If the window is divided, only the portion within the parameters needs tempering.

If Milgard let you buy and collect your windows at the factory, they have whored themselves out.

"Nothing new on the capping, I just don't like the look or the negatives."

Capping is a vast improvement for old weathered wood. Bugs will get anywhere, including under siding, so that is not a valid reason not to cap. And ventilation certainly should be provided for in the capping process.

Are you telling me you did window replacement for a living and never capped windows?

Here in SE PA we are lucky, I guess, to have a few local manufacturers. Certainteed among them. Competition keeps the prices down.

IIRC we had to use my buddies GC license. This was 10+ years ago so things may have changed.

We used the ICC codes which state the following.

What you have to do depends on what code you municipality adopts.


Tempered or laminated glass must be used in the following locations:

Glazing in doors and enclosures for hot tubs, whirlpools, saunas, steam rooms, bathtubs and showers. Glazing in any portion of a building wall enclosing these compartments where the bottom exposed edge of the glazing is less than 60 inches above a standing surface and drain inlet.

Glazing adjacent to a door where the nearest exposed edge of the glazing is within a 24-inch arc of either vertical edge of the door in a closed position and where the bottom exposed edge of the glazing is less than 60-inches above the walking surface.
EXCEPTION: Tempered is not required when there is an intervening wall or other permanent barrier located between the door and the glazing.

Glazing in fixed or operable panels, other than those locations described in items 2 and 3 above, that meets ALL of the following conditions:
-Exposed area of an individual pane greater than 9 square feet
-Exposed bottom edge less than 18 inches above the floor
-Exposed top edge greater than 36 inches above the floor
-One or more walking surfaces within 36 inches horizontally of the plane of the glazing
EXCEPTION: Tempered is not required when a protective bar is installed on the accessible sides of the glazing 34 inches to 38 inches above the floor. The bar shall be capable of withstanding a horizontal load of 50 pounds per linear foot without contacting the glass and be a minimum of 1-1/2 inches in height.

-Glazing in any hand railing regardless of height above a walking surface
-Glazing in walls and fences used as the barrier for indoor and outdoor swimming pools and spa when all of the following conditions are present:
The bottom edge of the glazing is less than 60 inches above the walking surface on the pool side of the glazing
The glazing is within 5 feet of a swimming pool or spa deck area
Glazing in walls enclosing stairway landings or within 5 feet of the bottom and top of stairways where the bottom edge of the glass is less than 60 inches above a walking surface
NOTE: Refer to Section 2406 - Safety Glazing, 1994 Uniform Building Code for reference of the above information.

Yes, I have never installed AL over wood of any kind. You have forced me to say it looks like a trailer park.

But, I live in a mild climate....



with a lot of trailer parks.

Chris,

Is there a Menard's near you? If so toke a look at their store brand windows. They are double pain, vinyl clad and easy to install. Wife and I did ours by ourselves and we had to remove all the wood down to the rock work and start over. The pricing was so much better than anyone else provided.

End product provided an immediate impact! We noticed an immediate decrease in drafts in the house and cost of electricity and our spider population dropped to near zero. Worthwhile effort, all told.

modern aluminIum frames, at least on this side of the ocean are not solid aluminIum but built around plastic chambers/air pockets to insulate the inner aluminIum from the outer aluminIum frame.

these are the ones i got

http://www.reynaers.com/upl/small/63..._3D_detail.jpg