Corolla timing chain alignment
 

I need some smarter brains to look at this alignment setup. Car is making top end noise - especially under any load. No OBDII codes.

#1 Piston at correct TDC (not overlap TDC). Crankshaft mark on Zero

TDC timing marks (dots) on cam sprockets have perfect face to face alignment flush with top of chain cover (drawn circle in center)

Yellow links on chain are supposed to line up with upper left drawn circle on exhaust cam sprocket (left) and fat line on intake sprocket.

The chain is exactly three links past where it should be, based on install instructions but everything else lines up.

Is this "ok" or has the chain slipped? The colored links are to assist install but if it is also three links off on the crankshaft sprocket, would it matter?

Did not buy car new. Bought at 90k and there is no service life limit on the chain. 125k now. If original the factory would have put the chain on right.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1322688084.jpg

It doesn't matter where the links on the chain sit, the fact that they were even marked is kind of interesting. It only matters that the lower sprocket is at TDC and the marks on the CAM gears are flush with marks on the case.

If that chain has/had "slipped" you would see broken teeth and metal everywhere in most cases.

It appears to be exactly where it's supposed to be. No timing issue. If it had slipped 3 links, it likely would not run.

If I had to guess, your issue is valve adjustment. Most Corollas of that vintage (guessing 1998-2002 there) had fixed (non-adjustable, non-hydraulic) bucket shims. They were set perfectly at the factory. Over time, with heat cycle, wear, and abuse, the clearances can be too tight or too loose.

Too tight and the valves won't seat completely, causing poor idle at best or melted/burnt valves at worst. I've rebuilt or replaced several of these motors for that exact reason. You might be "catching" the symptoms before real damage is done. It's common in all Toyotas that use this family of motors (but Toyota is perfect, right?)

Too loose and they rattle with the slack. Probably not "hurting" much in the short term, but causing some accelerated wear and inefficiency.

If you check them all with a feeler, you'll find that you have some that are tight, loose, and in-spec. Measure how far out of spec they are an order the correct spec from your Toyota dealer (although they are usually cheaper at your Chevy dealer, as it's the exact same motor as the Chevy Prism).

Sound about right?

It also looks like you have lots of sludge/heat/bad oil.....

Thanks guys. Yes 2000 (forgot to post year)

Yes - actually sounds fantastic. I have the Haynes manual which is not too bad for getting me into it - it should have the valve specs.

Car is an oil sow but does not leak. Ash on plugs pretty heavy after replacing with Denso Iridium plugs maybe 10k ago. No smoke just eats it.

However, the MAIN issue is that the car is my son-at-college's car. As he gets near graduation he is home infrequently and I can't check it out. It has eaten oil pretty fast over the 30k miles and he does not stay on top of it. I have added two quarts (holds maybe 4 1/2) a couple of times which results in the heat and crap.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1322690549.jpg

Common problem on these starting in 98 was cracked rings, many, many engine replacement stories out there. Poor running, excessive oil consumption, all common on these sadly. One day they just die in a cloud of blue smoke.

Those motors are KNOWN for oil consumption. Toyota says 1 quart per 1000 miles is "within spec". There is an updated ring pack set available (Toyota or Hastings) that will reduce consumption. Unless you're rebuilding the motor (you might want to consider it) then you're going to have to live with it. It is quite possible from the looks of the head/cams there that you may have a secondary issue of sticking/gummed-up ring lands..... once you get it running right, try using some upper-cylinder additives, even Seafoam, to get them unstuck.

Here is Toyota's shop manual on the whole process on the 1ZZ-FE (2003 Matrix, but yours is very similar): http://madstyle1972.com/Repair/14/201lbc04/a040001.pdf

As I think of it, if it were MY car I would just rebuild the motor with the new-style (2005-up) pistons, or drill more oil return holes in the original (or o.e. style) pistons and go to the new ring packs. It really isn't that expensive, and if you have a good machine shop that you trust you don't need all new parts (it's not a race or aircraft motor).

If you don't, you'll end up buying a new catalytic converter and spending a lot of money on oil. That's if the motor doesn't blow up.

OOOO, this is cool, know anyone that's done this? How was the motor after the ring replacement, did it last? (I happen to have one of these that needs rings or a motor currently)

It would be strange - and poor design - if the cam gears rotated exactly once twice, or three times etc. for every revolution of the chain so that every time the colored links came up they were on the same gear teeth. They may line up as you described once every 10 or 15 or more rotations of the engine.

Many, many thanks. Checking valve adjustment now. Cripes, more valves than my 911.

Compression is 150 to 160 with my old as can be tester. Three are on 160 and #4 is 150.

Will report back with findings.

That's the issue. I talked to my son sort of casually about that but we only spun it three or four times. I assumed every other rotation. Given my life total of two belt replacements - in the 1980's - I never did a deep think. Thank you.

That's pretty good! You probably don't have a "broken" ring. Do you have the ability to do a leak-down test? That would really show if you have issues. Regular compression tests don't always tell the whole story.

I've had it done to a half dozen motors. It turns out great.

As long as the pistons and bores are within spec (roundness, taper, wear) then fitting the new rings really helps. Drilling additional oil "drain back" holes helps too. And cleaning the pistons (ring-lands and oil-holes) helps all on it's own.

I've also replaced pistons with stock size on good bores when the piston skirt coatings were bad.

And I've bored the block first oversize and fitted new pistons.

All have given great results. One has almost 80K miles since a ring-only job (w/ oil hole mod) and is in the normal quart-or-so between oil changes range.

Not right now - but I think I am going to gear up for it.

Here are the valve lash results

Exhaust - tolerance 10-14 thousandths. From 1 1 through 4 4

11 11 11 11 09 12 11 12

Intake- tolerance 06-10 thousandths. From 1 1 through 4 4
08 08 08 08 08 08 06 08

One lifter out of tolerance. Should not be causing the jumbled clatter under load I am hearing. A little noise at idle but under load it gets moderately scary. The idle noise quieted down after I added 2 qts this morning.

I am liking the sticking parts theory. I am off to the car parts store in a few to get a leak down tester and a valve cover set. The center rib of the gasket was like plastic it was so hard.

Agreed, you shouldn't be getting noise from those tolerances..........

Thanks again. Back in a while.

The only thing I have to add to this thread, is Damn, Eric , you are truly a walking automotive encyclopedia! How do you store all this info in your head?

He sure has put me onto a game plan.

I have the leak down tester, a couple cans of Seafoam and a new valve cover gasket.

I have a detonation theory based on crud and ash buildup. Probably should have seen a code if that happened.

First the leak down test.

Leak down test shows "low" as well as consistent across the board. Seafoam treatment in the morning.

Eric - I have two of the 3.0 Toyota's; A '92 (replaced on warranty at 75,000 miles, now weak compression on 2 cylinders) and a '99 Camry with 176,000 running perfectly. Can I PM you a question or 2? Thax

Low loss? Or low sealing? Seafoam can't hurt if the oil is full and relatively clean and the filter is up to it.... if the filter is older all that crap that gets dislodged will just clog the filter.

Always, no problem

Corolla doesn't have "lifters" they are pusher. ;) Anyway mine was burning oil and down on gas mileage and it was a burned exhaust valve on number 4.

Exactly what happens when a "pusher" is too tight and keeps the exhaust valve from completely seating, lol

Doan know much about them fancy furrin engines but seems like iffn it's all noisy and such, I'd wonder how old the chain is and if the automatic chain tensioner is still working and if the chain had stretched until it's slapping on the slipper guides.

It hasn't jumped a tooth yet but if it does ......

Low loss. Put it back together, cleaned plugs and seafoamed into a vacuum tube slightly for a few times then drowned it and let it set for an hour.

I don't know what did the trick but the noise became very audible, clear and consistent - rod bearing. I have a feeling putting oil in it yesterday morning helped eliminate the "jumbled" portion of the noise the most.

I have heard a very minor version of this noise from as long as 20k miles ago and thought it was resonance from a heat shield.

So I put some seafoam in the oil and putted around the neighborhood looking like a mosquito fogger while the seafoam cleared out of the pistons.

Ordered the bearings - $22 -and will install Saturday.

Thanks Eric for all the help. The link you provided had the same pictures in the Haynes book and was a much more thorough description of the process.

I hope you are not going to tell me I have to have the block line bored in Japan. I do need to find if the con rods bolts are stretch bolts.

Here is a video of the beast crying out in pain.

Rod bearing - YouTube

And I bet the water pump is original from 2000. Tick tick tick

Well the hillbilly fix did not do it this time. Crank was too far gone. 3 journals plasti-gauged ok but a fourth was half a thousandths undersize and scored - gauge read just beyond service limit. Other three were marginal as to journal surface even though within tolerance. Some heat stress noted on rod big ends.

I think I will go back to Eric's earlier posts and take the extra steps to fix the oil issues.

Probably value in buying a used engine with a decent crank (and without a heat stressed engine) and then do the low oil loss rings and open the oil return holes.

Just take it to any decent machine shop and have the crank machined. They could do just the rod journals 0.10 over and leave the mains STD (they would micropolish it). It would cost $100-120. A set of quality fitted rod/main bearings would cost about $60. Minneapolis Crankshaft Supply in downtown Mpls charges under $180 for the whole kit (return your core) and ships worldwide, but really any machine shop anywhere could do it without messing up. Machine shop 101.

Make sure you have them check the rods as that one rod will likely be out of round. My machine shop charges $10 a rod to resize the big end, but that's pretty cheap.

Boiling, checking, and mic'ing the block runs about $100 and honing adds another $10 a hole.

The rings should run about $60 for the updated Hastings set; more for Toyota. Or do pistons and rings together for about $110 (cheap Chinese available for $70), but then you really should bore 0.10 over for another ~$100.

SO.... my point....DON'T buy a used motor. Have your current motor refreshed. It should be rebuildable.

I like the idea of buying a fitted kit - that is $220 cheaper than I thought, also. Might just send them (MCS) the rods along with the crank work and have the block worked on in Akron.

Are you saying I can get a set of "oversize" pistons and rings for $110 and have the bores opened for $100-ish?

I actually like the engine now that I have seen a bit of it.

I'll be chatting you up. :-)

Thanks Eric.

Bob

Yes. But you may not need oversize. Your machine shop will measure it and let you know. Personally, I would have it bored ~0.020" (0.50mm) based on the exact dimesions (not specs) of the new pistons. Your machine shop will fit them and bore/hone accordingly. Going 20 over guarantees that everything is square and straight.

Since this is an older car with higher miles and not a race car or 911, I'd just do the Evergreen pistons (Chinese) that are proliferating on eBay. My engine parts wholesaler has been carrying them now for a couple years and my machine shop has good things to say about them.

They're $71 with rings (incl shipping) on eBay.
Pistons with Rings Chevy Toyota 1.8 1ZZFE DOHC 16-Valve | eBay

I'm not sure how "good" the rings are, but I'm sure they'll work

I do want to make sure whatever rings are install are superior to the original design regarding oil blow-by so I can research that. Nice that the prices are favorable.

Edit: OK - I need to not get ahead of myself. Will pull engine and check bores. May just take to the shop as I don't have a ridge reamer.

Hastings 2C4947 is the updated ring set
My wholesale online site isn't operational on Sundays so I can't look up prices
Seems to me they were around $60, but might be more

Thanks. Need to get the verdict if originals can be reused and if the bore is within operating limits. Will take a few days for that. Gotta get the 911 valve covers back on and have it mobile so the boss is not freaked out about all the iron clutter (as she is now) in the garage.

Hi Eric,

Machine shop says bores / pistons are ok. Big ends on con rods must be bored and rod journals on crank ground. Micro-polish on mains only. We will use the Hastings rings you recommend.

The shop has drilled additional return holes in pistons. However, I offered to get additional info if I could from you. If you have a summary of the process that would make me feel more comfortable. There are two holes on each side currently and you can see a boss in the casting where the holes go through to the center of the piston.

I did call Toyota and they did not indicate there was an updated ring set. They definitely had updated pistons so I am assuming the oil relief is better in these.

Many thanks again.

Great! Hopefully the crank machining and bearings are inline with the estimates I gave.

They already HAVE drilled the holes?

You have the oldest pistons if you have two 1/16" holes on each side. The new-er revision had four 1/8" holes on each side. The newest (2005-up) design has seven holes on each thrust/skirt side (see photo comparing rev 2 and 3).

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1323361765.jpg

You should be able to make the holes bigger, 1/8" and drill two extra.

Your machine shop will know how/where to drill the holes in "safe" places... I couldn't find a write up online doing a quick search.

They may not even know they have changed over the years.

Here is Toyota of Europe's TSB.....

gen7_oil_consumption

Here is a Toyota forum post:

piston oil holes - Toyota Nation Forum : Toyota Car and Truck Forums

Good luck!

Perfect. Price is a few buck more locally and this guy did work on my 911. Akron can use all the commerce it can get, too.

He is waiting on me to provide data I get from you. I will print pics data and drive it over to him.

All of this will cost much less than a "cheap" very used engine. Engines that are in good shape (from mileage only) are $1,500 plus.

Thanks - talk soon. Monday for the machine work to be done.

Will advise.

This data has saved me a boat load of money and heartache. Thank you, Eric.

Edit:

I printed your picture of the 2nd and 3rd version of the pistons and some of your comments and drove it down to the machine shop.

He grunted and said, "I thought it would be about like this". So he will do the 2nd version update. That has to provide about five or more times better flow-out(in?) than the two per side set up.

Machine work took a few extra days. Assembling now.

Mains were ground 0.010 as well as rod journals. Got the Hastings rings. Big end of rods done also.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1325459928.jpg

Hopefully, it will no longer be an oil burner. :-)

Running well. Loved how I could move the crank with new surfaces and matched bearings by hand fully torqued.

Made a few bone head moves from inexperience with this engine that ate way more hours than I care to admit.

1. The power steering pump should not be slung over on the windshield - it should be hanging down when the engine is dropped in - no room to slide it between the firewall and the block.

2. The block mounted "sliding" bushing inserts for the power steering and alternator that squeeze against the parts when installed should be pressed back while on the engine stand - not after the engine is dropped in.

3. The silly springs on the exhaust manifold bolts that keep tension on the donut gasket go on the bottom of the exhaust pipe and push up on the gasket - NOT IN BETWEEN the flanges. This move was worthy of the Darwin award. I took time to check crank end play and plasti-gage the bearings but did not take time to look at the picture in the book of the exhaust hardware.

A bone head move that proved favorable was breaking the Variable Valve Timing Oil Control Valve. It interfered with removing one of the head bolts and it was frozen in the block from all of the heat build up varnish and I did not have a clue what it was until after I broke it in half from reefing on it. Is still took a drift and some major whacking to get it out. Seems it is a pretty important part for this engine and after putting about 30 miles on the car I gave it a little throttle and the engine sounded different than ever before - like a mini version of kicking in the secondary throttles on a four barrel carb. So I am thinking this part may not have been functioning properly.

Enough rambling. Thanks for all the insight on the original timing chain question and a big thanks to Eric for the engine refresh and piston fix info.

Here is the new VVT oil control valve

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1327103480.jpg

Thanks for the update. Good work.