Need an outsiders opinion on something...

[island911]

Thinking on this a bit more, I can't help but to think about those situations when one dies in the line of duty. There the subtext often is, that the rest of the team may have let down their team mate . . that they should not have allowed there teammate go into a bad place. Making the big honors a bit of a healing for the rest of the crew.

Well, here, the teammate went to a bad place. And considering the amount of down-time fierfighters spend with each other, missing that the guy was suicidal must sting a bit. (unless no one really like the guy - it happens.)

[island911]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

Serious Question. Where do you draw the line? If I get killed while riding my motorcycle off duty, should I get a full Police funeral for the 20+ years of honorable service I've done. what if I slip in the tub....people already complain about where their tax dollars are going....

Personally, I've been to way to many funerals where cops (some my friends) were shot and killed in the line of duty. It's horrible. But we honor them for the ultimate sacrifice they made. When I die, if its off duty, I will not belittle the honor those men earned in blood by getting a full police funeral. YMMV.

In related news No troop parade imminent as Iraq war ends - Army News | News from Afghanistan & Iraq - Army Times

I mean, talk about getting shot at. And for Nine years?
... I don't mean to diminish the crap feigning from PO'd motorists you deal with daily but c'mon, have some perspective.

[speeder]

the children will know their dad did himself in.



The honor guard is part of the healing process for the kids. an important one.

Says who? I'm not seeing in any way, shape or form how young children will somehow dilineate between a "full honors" funeral and one w/o the rifle salute. How many funerals, (forget fireman funerals), do you think they've attended? I certainly hope the answer is "none".

I see this as 100% for the benefit of the surviving adult relatives. And considering that his closest surviving adult relative was his soon-to-be ex-wife who was probably the reason he killed himself, who really gives a schit about making her feel special?

Small children wouldn't know the difference between a "full-honors" FF funeral, a half-honors funeral and a gypsy Shriner's funeral. Where you get your half-baked yet overly passionate arguments, I'll never know...

[vash]

my brother had to shoot and kill a fireman. he went berzerk and held his policewife hostage and got to her service piece. he was punching her when my bro showed up. he pulled her back towards the garage, and she mouthed and pointed "pistol" towards the garage. my bro knew he was going for her piece. when he ran into the garage bro got ready.

fireman was calling out for bro to locate him. double tap ended the situation. IIRC, the fireman got the full red carpet treatment funeral. insane.

[island911]

Well, there we go... If one gets hired as a fire fighter, then that person is then immediate royalty. ...even if he's a POS that does nothing more than hang-out in a brick building ...maybe goes for a ride in a big red truck now and then -that's INSIDE the truck; that whole hanging on the back might be faster to scene, but too risky for the train professional royalty.

Sheesh; no personal offense Vinny, but your profession has been really pushing the default good will. I mean do doctors have some big show when one of theirs -say a doc who has saved thousands of lives thru improved medicine or Sx dies?

Again, giving honors to everyone, diminishes those who really deserved extra special recognition.

[KFC911]

Island, and all others, I can't disagree with ANY of your opinions...in fact even though I wholehearted agree with them, I still think Vinny did the right thing even if there's only a remote chance that it might salvage a kid's memory of their dad. I know if I was over say 4 years old, I'd remember...

ps: yeah, I'm a bleeding heart Republican

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by island911

Sheesh; no personal offense Vinny, but your profession has been really pushing the default good will. I mean do doctors have some big show when one of theirs -say a doc who has saved thousands of lives thru improved medicine or Sx dies?

Again, giving honors to everyone, diminishes those who really deserved extra special recognition.

No offense taken. Your view is also that of a lot of our guys also, and not just in my dept.

Just for info, the kids are yr& 1/2 ,3, 5,7

[flatbutt]

Then again some guys here are just freakin' mean spirited. How the h ell do you over simplify something like this and compare it to the "everyone wins a trophy" scenario?

[MMARSH]

Originally Posted by georgeinhere

Interesting point by marsh. It seems many within the fire/police community feel as he does.
Tough call but perhaps that commun

i asked every person i work with thier opinion. Every single one said the same thing I did. Wonder why?

Shaun, you act like there can't be a nice respectful,dignified service without those honors reserved for those who have made the ultimate sacrifice.

[MRM]

Vinny, you did the right thing. Here's the important thing to understand and remember: His death from a mental illness was as much a part of the job as if he died in a roof collapse.

I think the analogy to the military is appropriate and illustrates why the honor guard was appropriate. I read David Hackworth's excellent autobiography About Face. For those of you who don't know him, Hackworth was for most of his adult life the most highly decorated US combat veteran alive, having lied about his age to join the Army at 15, getting a battlefield commission in Korea, and then surviving Viet Nam as a full bird colonel and retiring rather than taking the postings that would have lead to general rank.

Hackworth wrote about this issue. He watched many of his friends, compatriots, and enemies die off the battlefield due to alcohol, losing the will to live, crazy behavior - the works. He started out condemning such men, then growing sadly curious why some people turn out that way. Eventually he came full circle (about face, so to speak) and came to believe that a man is like a bottle; you can fill it with combat, stress, or whatever, only so many times. When he fills to overflowing, he can't empty his bottle any more and he's broken. When that happens, the man is as much a casualty of war as if he were cut down by a bullet.

This man died the same way. He had no choice. He was compelled to die. There wasn't anything he or anyone else could have done about it. He was mentally ill to the point that he could not prevent his own death. That's why they call it mental illness. His mind is as broken as his body would have been if he was crushed under a burning building. He was as much a casualty of his job as if he died in the active line of duty, fighting a fire and his heart gave out on him.

Explain that to people and I don't think you'll get another complaint out of anyone. If you explain that to the family I think they will understand and it will help them heal. He was a casualty of his job and the honor guard was there to reflect that.

[Head416]

Originally Posted by MMARSH

No.

Full service funerals are for those who die in the line of duty.

...

I encouraged full honors on the previous page, and I'm not changing my "vote", but the above makes sense to me.

It seemed to me at the time that the question was based directly on his suicide, like if it was a car accident he'd get full honors but since it was a suicide maybe he shouldn't. If it's the standard practice that full honors ONLY go with on-the-clock deaths, then I would understand not doing it. However, if it makes a difference to the survivors, I still don't see the harm in extending a little grace and compassion and trying to give them something to help them. If that line in the sand hasn't been clearly drawn in the past in this department, then now doesn't seem to be the time to make a stand.

I would NEVER tell the family, "since it was a suicide, he doesn't deserve honor." But I would understand if the answer was, "I'm sorry, but 'full honors' are only when somebody dies on the job."

[Shaun @ Tru6]

Originally Posted by Head416

However, if it makes a difference to the survivors, I still don't see the harm in extending a little grace and compassion and trying to give them something to help them.

Some would argue that extending grace and compassion in this circumstance cheapens the meaning of the honor guard as it was originally intended. It demeans spirit of the ceremony and the memory of those who served and died in the call of duty.

it's a valid perspective.

In this circumstance, and let's be clear, this sort thing is case by case, there are no hard lines to be drawn, I believe the grace and compassion shown in having an honor guard both honors the Company and honors the survivors.

it is not every day that you get the chance to be the men we want to be. this is one of those times.

[Head416]

Originally Posted by Shaun 84 Targa

Some would argue that extending grace and compassion in this circumstance cheapens the meaning of the honor guard as it was originally intended. It demeans spirit of the ceremony and the memory of those who served and died in the call of duty.

it's a valid perspective.

^ I agree. I hadn't really seen this perspective before my first post.

In this circumstance, and let's be clear, this sort thing is case by case, there are no hard lines to be drawn, I believe the grace and compassion shown in having an honor guard both honors the Company and honors the survivors.

it is not every day that you get the chance to be the men we want to be. this is one of those times.

I agree with this as well. The hard lines don't seem to be drawn in this dept like they apparently are in others. And any time there's a question, it's better to err on the side of compassion.

[island911]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

Then again some guys here are just freakin' mean spirited. How the h ell do you over simplify something like this and compare it to the "everyone wins a trophy" scenario?

freakin' mean spirited?

Pragmatic maybe, but no malice is intended.

My point was that when people, not deserving, get special honors -a lie, just to make people feel good- then it diminishes the special honors given/reserved to those who did do something special.

So, if anything, you people who will so easily dole out the "honor" tag are the mean ones. --mean to those who actually earned special honors.

www.woundedwarriorproject.org

[flatbutt]

Originally Posted by island911

freakin' mean spirited?

Pragmatic maybe, but no malice is intended.

My point was that when people, not deserving, get special honors -a lie, just to make people feel good- then it diminishes the special honors given/reserved to those who did do something special.

So, if anything, you people who will so easily dole out the "honor" tag are the mean ones. --mean to those who actually earned special honors.

Home - Wounded Warrior Project

I do respect your point of view but still disagree. Especially with the " so easily dole out the honor tag". I still maintain that the honor guard has more to do with how he lived not so much with how he died.

In the PGR we have provided the honor escort to all service men and women. Even those who died in auto wrecks stateside. And the military provided them with color guard and gun salute even though they weren't KIA.

[Hugh R]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Would any of the guys who don't want to do it be comfortable with walking up to one of his kids and telling them to their face that their dad was dishonorable?

This says it all.

[VINMAN]

Once again, thank you for everyones help. We had the service last night. funeral this morning. Family was overly grateful. Glad it turned out the way it did.
Was a rough one. Gave his kids his turnout coat, helmet and badges.

Hope to never have to do something like this again.

[flatbutt]

Vinny, hug the wife, walk the dog, enjoy the ocean air. You know what I mean bro.

[VINMAN]

Originally Posted by flatbutt

vinny, hug the wife, walk the dog, enjoy the ocean air. You know what i mean bro.

1,000,000 % !

[1990C4S]

Originally Posted by island911

... do doctors have some big show when one of theirs -say a doc who has saved thousands of lives thru improved medicine or Sx dies?

I believe we are honoring bravery in the line of duty, not saving lives per se. I would prefer to walk into an office over a burning building, so I get a normal funeral. If the family of someone who did that for a living gets a 'questionable' but memorable funeral, so be it.

I believe the correct choice was made.