Legal Question Concerning Murder / Manslaughter

[M.D. Holloway]

Question 1 - If a pregnant women is struck by a drunk driver and looses her unborn would the driver be convicted of murder or manslaughter?

Question 2 - If a pregnant women is killed and they catch the prep, is it a double homocide?

Question 3 - If a pregnant women ODs on pills, doesn't die but the baby does is it homocide or manslaughter?

[ramonesfreak]

why are you asking this? always drop the gun like in mob movies and youll get away no prob! :-)

these are typical law school questions actually. you need "intent" for murder/homicide. gotta have actus reus with mens rea, basically

so assuming in 2 that she was killed intentionally, you would certainly have double homicide under the Unborn Victims of Violence Act of 2004

the other situations, OD and DWI are not intentional and have no mens rea element necessary for the crime of murder

[ramonesfreak]

regarding #2, look up "transferred intent" . similar principle. if i intend to murder you, pull the trigger and miss you but hit your neighbor between the eyes. im guilty of murdering your neighbor, even though i intended to kill you and not your neighbor. i think thats what you were wondering regarding that question...?

[ramonesfreak]

dang you got my mind going now

#3, if the woman intended to kill herself - suicide - by ODing on pills...she might be found guilty of murdering the baby via transferred intent...

i would want to research the cases to see how suicide is distinguished from murdering yourself. public policy would favor a murder finding. however, the constitution allows abortion, so does the transferable intent doctrine apply when you intend to kill yourself...? or can you use abortion as a defense?

interesting. been a long time since i studied crim law

[MRM]

The serious answer to this question is that it depends on the law of the state where the crime took place. Murder is a state offence and each state has a statute that defines murder in the various degrees. There is no national law against murder, just as there is no national law against assault or driving without a driver's license. The states are free to define murder however they chose.

In some states killing a pregant mother would result in two counts of first degree murder. In some states it would be considered murder of the mother and the illegal death of a fetus as a subset of murder. In other it would be murder and a variation on manslaughter. I don't know of any states off the top of my head where any of the scenarios above would not be some form of murder or manslaughter. A pregant woman overdosing and killing her unborn child but not herslef is pretty classic texbook hypothetical manslaughter, again depending on that state's specific law.

A drunk driver killing a pregnant womand and the unborn child would be criminal vehicular homocide (CVO). In most states it would be two counts with no distinction made for whether the death involved an adult or unborn child.

[M.D. Holloway]

So I guess the pro-lifers would use these as indications that the unborn is infact a person? I mean, you can't murder a pouch of cells right?

[74-911]

Originally Posted by LubeMaster77

So I guess the pro-lifers would use these as indications that the unborn is infact a person? I mean, you can't murder a pouch of cells right?

Mississippi recently tried to pass a law stating that exact thing, i.e. at conception the fetus was a person, outlawed all abortions no matter the circumstance, etc. and killing a fetus would be murder.

[Oh Haha]

To#2-

A cop in a neighboring county is charged with double homicide in the death of his girlfriend who was pregnant at the time of her death.

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by LubeMaster77

Question 1 - If a pregnant women is struck by a drunk driver and looses her unborn would the driver be convicted of murder or manslaughter?

Question 2 - If a pregnant women is killed and they catch the prep, is it a double homocide?

Question 3 - If a pregnant women ODs on pills, doesn't die but the baby does is it homocide or manslaughter?

1 Can't be murder as it was not premeditated, that leaves aggravated manslaughter

2 I guess that depends on the DA really, prolly yes.

3 That's a can of worms and i ain't going there.

[HHI944]

The proper 'American' answers, in order:
Sue the beer company and the bar
Sue the gun manufacturer
Sue the pharmaceutical company

[svandamme]

Originally Posted by HHI944

The proper 'American' answers, in order:
Sue the beer company and the bar
Sue the gun manufacturer
Sue the pharmaceutical company

You forgot some in the list :

the car company , tire company
bullet company
pharmacist

[HHI944]

Good catch stijn. Are you sure you don't secretly live on this side of the pond?

[svandamme]

No, but i have eyes and ears that report to me on every move worth reporting..
Consider me well informed.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by LubeMaster77

Question 1 - If a pregnant women is struck by a drunk driver and looses her unborn would the driver be convicted of murder or manslaughter?

Question 2 - If a pregnant women is killed and they catch the prep, is it a double homocide?

Question 3 - If a pregnant women ODs on pills, doesn't die but the baby does is it homocide or manslaughter?

First, a bit of clarification. The term, "homicide" applies to all the scenarios because it simply means the death of a human being due to the actions of another. Murder (and there are various "degrees" of murder) and manslaughter are types of homicide that carry legal consequences. Therefore, killing anyone under any circumstances is a homicide but the circumstances determine if the homicide is a punishable crime or even a crime at all.

What you are really asking in your scenarios is whether or not the baby/fetus is legally a human being and that is the area of controversy. As stated in previous posts, each state sets the standards for homicide and has to define the meaning of human being. Most have opted to determine that when a fetus is a "viable human being"--meaning it has developed to a point where it is possible to survive on its own outside the womb (including the use of artificial measures as incubators)--it is protected, legally. So your questions are really designed to provoke thought and discussion on the determination of when a human being exists, and that is a discussion that could run for pages and pages without any consensus.

[ossiblue]

Originally Posted by georgeinhere

Interesting thread.

A bit off topic but,

If the fetus is a viable human being and that's established at conception. Then, if a foreign national gets impregnated while on US soil and goes back to their country. Is that child that was conceived in the States an American citizen?

For the sake of discussion, the answer is "no" because American citizenship is determined by birth, not conception, and birth is defined by removal from the womb (either naturally or artificially.)