Reloading and Primers
 

I've had a reloading press for a while and I'm finally going to start to do a little reloading.

Is there a list someplace on what caliber uses what primer? I've been looking around on some of the websites and there doesn't seem to be a list. A little help SmileWavy

Ask Jeff, don't ask Jack.

James, have you bought any of the reloading books such as the one by Lyman or RCBS? They cover loads of all power ranges, primers to use and so on. I would visit a local shop in your area that deals in reloading supplies and ask questions. If the guy behind the counters starts ranting against this or that, try some place else. Just do not blow your self up!!!!http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1331776490.jpg

The "recipes" that I use (Lee die documentation, books, etc...) all list the primer size, near the dimensions of the case and completed cartridge.

I just picked up ABCs of Reloading. I'll take a look through.

There are only four primer sizes available; large rifle and small rifle, large pistol and small pistol. The size used is dictated by the case into which it will be seated. Generally speaking, .30-'06 and belted magnum case head sizes take large rifle primers, and the .223 / 5.56mm case head sizes take small rifle. With handguns, generally speaking anything .38 caliber and smaller take small pistol; .40 and up take large pistol.

The primer pockets on each of these four general groupings are all different sizes, even though large rifle and large pistol look about the same, as do small rifle and small pistol. They are not. Rifle primer pockets are about .0005" to .001" bigger in diameter, and just a touch deeper than pistol case primer pockets. Pistol primers are, therefor, too loose to be safe in rifle cases. Don't mix them up.

Each of these four sizes are further divided into "standard" and "magnum". This has nothing to do with whether they are used in standard or magnum calibers, believe it or not, nor the physical size of the primer, but rather indicates how much priming compound it contains, along with how "hot" it burns. In very broad terms, standard primers are for lighting light to medium charges of fast to medium burning powders, and magnum primers are for lighting bigger charges of slower burning powders. This is the only aspect of all of this that can get confusing - it is common practice to use standard primers in magnum cases with some powders and some bullets, and an equally common practice to use magnum primers in standard cases with some powders and some bullets.

That is where recognized sources of reloading data come in - they will all list the primer used in a specific combination. Changing primers in a given load can and will change pressure and velocity developed by that load. Not necessarily just changing from a standard to a magnum primer, but also when changing brands of primers, even if both brands are the "same" as far as standard or magnum. In other words, changing from a standard CCI primer in a given load to a standard Federal primer in the same load will result in different pressure and velocity. This isn't a bad thing, but rather something to be aware of, and also a pretty good way to get that last little bit of refinement out of a given load.

Speer has what is probably the best manual available for basic reloading information such as this. It has several chapters explaining everything you will ever need to know about primers, cases, powders, bullets - the works. The Lyman manual is excellent for this as well. Both offer far more than simple lists of loads for various calibers; they are very good tutorials on the hobby of reloading in general. Some other manuals supply comprehensive tables of loads for every caliber on earth, but are lacking in the nuts and bolts instructions on how to use the equipment to assemble the loads, or why certain primers are used with certain powders in certain applications, and that kind of "in depth" information. The Speer and Lyman manuals all cover this stuff in great detail.

use Winchester primers. One size fits all. Hehe, not really. As Jeff said it's one or the other. Winchester cost a few cents more a box but they are very good primers. Lots of bang.

That's a good book. Also get a good current reloading manual (I have Lyman) and read it. Probably a good idea to pick up a couple of manuals. I have an older Speer manual which has different load information from the Lyman. It would be a good idea to find a real person (as opposed to imaginary ones like me) with relaoding experience to work with.

A Primer primer.........
 

Not really, but if anyone is interested, montroseauctions.com has a big firearms auction this Saturday with several lots of primers up for auction. At least one of the lots contains 3 cases (yes, cases) of primers! There are about 8-900 guns for auction and probably 3-400 other lots. The catalog is 53 pages long! Happy hunting.

My bad.........
 

That is "montroseauction.com, not montroseauctions.com

Winchester primers are indeed "hotter" than other brands, but that isn't necessarily a good or bad thing. Just different.

Winchester produces nothing but "ball" powders these days. Powder burning rates are controled a couple of different ways; size of the kernels or flakes and / or deterent coatings. Traditional extruded powders (they look like little pieces of pencil lead) lean more towards the size of the kernel than any deterent coatings to control burn rate. Modern ball powders (the kernels look like just that - little round balls) rely almost completely upon deterent coatings to control burn rate. This makes them notably harder to ignite than the old extruded powders. Hence, Winchester's use of "hotter" primers accross the board, since all they produce and use are ball powders.

Being "hotter" may or may not make them better suited to a given load in a particular rifle or handgun. I will say I have seldom obtained best accuracy with them, with the notable exception of black powder match rifle loads. Even when using Winchester ball powders (760 in the .375 H&H, 296 in the .357 mag, .44 mag, .45 Colt, etc.) I've typically wound up with either CCI or Federal magnum primers.

A lot of folks swear by Remington primers, which are generally the "mildest" of the lot. There is a prevailing feeling in the shooting world that the mildest primer that will reliably light the charge provides best accuracy. I'm not convinced. I've used dozens of bricks of Remington primers over the years and have not found that to be the case.

Anyway, primers are kind of a "last thing" in the process of load development. When I get a new gun, I typically start with proven powders and bullets, and whatever suitable primer I have on hand at the moment. As I work my way through different powders, charges, and seating depths with a given bullet, I will zero in on a combination the gun seems to like. Then, and only then, will I start fiddling with primers. I'll back the charge off a few grains and work back up with a different primer. Sometimes I see some improvement or deterioration in group size. Sometimes it makes little difference. But, like I say, it's always the last thing I play with. All primers are "good" primers these days, with no one brand of better quality than any other. It's all about suitability of application.

I love reloading threads for the input you guys here provide.

Just out of interest, has anyone had a primer go bang whilst seating it? I sit there with my eye and ear protectors on and hold my breath each time I pull down on the press. I'm quite new to reloading and still struggling to get under 1MOA.

so-
take all the projectiles and weigh them out and separate them by weight.
i use a digital scale that does a tenth of a grain. you will see a range of weights that vary by one or two grains.
I found that by keeping the projectiles together grouped by weight my grouping tightened up quickly.

I have never heard of a primer going off while being seated. As long as you are using tools designed for the job, I don't see how that can happen.

What firearm, in what caliber, do you reload for and shoot? There are some combinations or firearm and chambering that are simple incapable of the mythical one minute of angle.

Funny, modern gun writers and the pulp magazines they feed have somehow convinced the shooting public that any old gun in any old caliber simply must shoot moa or it's next to worthless. Hogwash. Nothing could be further from the truth. The simple fact of the matter is that most rifles will never achieve that loft panacea, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with them.

I do this as a matter of routine with the cast bullets I use for black powder match shooting. I used to do it with the cast bullets I used for pistol match shooting as well. It's served me well for sorting my own cast bullets, which do vary enough to affect group size. As far as commercially produced jacketed rifle bullets, though, I have never seen any advantage. They are just that good these days.

There are usually other factors that have a far greater influence on accuracy. Bullet selection itself is probably the most important; a quality bullet of a weight suitable for the rifling twist in the given firearm goes a long ways. Seating depth is probably the single most overlooked factor in accuracy, or the lack thereof. It's amazing how sensitive some rifles are to this single factor. Nail those two, and typically any reasonable powder suited to the cartridge and bullet weight, and any reasonable charge of that powder, will shoot well.

yes Jeff ultimately, these bullets are built for this gun; and these are built for this gun-

only reason a primer would go bang is if you tried very hard to press a boxer primer (the kind u normally get) into a berdan case.

Sorry if I've hijacked this thread. I'll start a new one if necessary but I guess redbeard's question was comprehensively answered.

I shoot a Sako 85 in 6.5x55 Swedish. I can get 1 MOA with factory ammo so I guess I'm just being picky. Really I'm reloading for the cost savings, not accuracy but it would be nice to get it right. I don't target shoot competitively, just for fun on things like running deer and boar ranges. For deer stalking 1MOA is more than adequate.
I bought some PPU bullets which were useless and have moved to Sierra Match 120g. I just bought some 107g and 140g too. I got the groups smaller by playing with the seating depth. Sako brass and Viht N160 powder.

Ah, yes - one of my all-time favorite calibers. I have a Ruger #1 Light Sporter, and my oldest son has a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight (that I gave him on his 12th birthday) in that caliber. That Sako 85 is a very nice rifle as well.

The 6.5 Swede is kind of a quandry. Factory rifles are typically chambered to accept military ammunition, which was originally loaded with big, long, 160 grain round nose bullets. As a result, the throats are very long. So long that lighter spitzer shaped bullets just can't be seated out very close to the origin of the rifling before their bases would be out in front of the case neck. So, they have to make quite a jump accross all of that free bored throat before they engage the rifling. Not very conducive to accuracy. That, and the old Swede typically has a very fast twist rifling, like one turn in 7 1/2 inches, in order to stabilize that long for caliber 160 grain bullet.

The obvious answer is to use those long 160 grain bullets. Hornady has re-introduced theirs after a few years out of production. Lapua has a 155 grain bullet that both of our little Swedes just love. Sierra used to have one, but discontinued it years ago (I managed to squirrel away half a dozen boxes, but have since used them up).

The old Swede made its reputation on these bullets, and they do penetrate like there's no tomorrow. I've never been able to get the short 120 and 140 grain spitzers to shoot as well in this caliber. They shoot great in more "modern" 6.5's, like the .264 Winchester magnum, .260 Remington, 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x.284 Norma, and stuff like that. These more modern chamberings, however, are typically throated much shorter (many won't chamber the long 160 grain round noses) and the rifling is a bit slower. The modern thinking seems to be that these lighter spitzers are "better" than the old round noses, because we can get more velocity out of them, they are more streamlined, and therefor they shoot flatter. Meh... gimme that big, long round nose. It's what the Swede built its reputation on, as the "little gun that could". With that bullet, it kills all out of proportion to its size. And most rifles tend to shoot them better.

just got off the phone with my brother. he gave away the dillion progressive reloader.


damn. damn damn. there goes my dream of shooting alot alot.

Vash, the key to shooting alot alot is this: .22lr. Shoot a couple hundred rounds of .22, then bring out something more substantial. Take time with the .22 to focus hard on technique, then afterwards 24 rounds of .44mag, or 25 rounds of .308 to give time on a bigger weapon and you can then switch back to the .22 and work on what you need to correct, for very little money. Plus if you enjoy reloading, a single-stage is relaxing and you can still make enough to shoot cheap.

Actually the real key to shooting very frequently is shooting in your own yard. When you don't have to pack up and fight traffic and deal with a crowded range, shooting 3-4 times a week isn't a big commitment.

Jeff, that's interesting thanks. The best result I get with factory ammo is with Sako 156g Game Point but they are slow, only about 2150 ft/s with a moderator on the rifle. I'll try to get some of the heavier bullets and see how fast I can push them. I need to hit 2450 to be deer legal in Scotland where I try to spend a week every year out after Red Stags.

Factory loaded 6.5x55 ammunition is typically loaded to very low pressures so that they are safe in original Swedish Mausers. Norma is an exception, loading their stuff right up to pressure levels enjoyed by modern rifle rounds. Last I saw, they listed a 160 grain round nose right at 2,500 fps.

Handloaded ammunition can easily exceed that. Using a very slow powder, like Alliant's Reloder 22, the 160 grain bullet can touch 2,600 fps in a strong, modern action.

So, is there some kind of minimum kinetic energy requirement that a load must meet to be eligible to hunt red deer? Or is it just a flat velocity cutoff, regardless of bullet weight or caliber? Lighter bullets at higher velocities in any given caliber will always generate more kinetic energy; as velocity is squared (mv^2), thereby unrealistically weighting speed more than mass. These high kinetic energy numbers tend to impress the impressionable more so than they impress the animals...

Give me bullet weight over velocity any day, especially in a caliber like the 6.5 Swede. Even at the moderate velocities you've seen from the Sako load, it will be a better killer (especially on an animal the size of red deer) than the lighter, faster loads.

But, in the end, the law is the law, so you must comply. The good news is that you can easily, safely exceed that 2,450 fps threshold with the 160 grain bullet using the correct powders. Your rifle is more than strong enough to handle modern day pressures.

Just to muddy the waters a bit...

Large rifle primers aren't really the biggest rifle primers you can get. There is a size bigger that is used in .50 BMG and 20mm.

And then there are shotgun primers, of which there are several kinds that are all the same size.

Where do you order those?

England and Scotland have different legal systems for some archaic reason, and whenever they can the scots like to change things just a little to make it awkward;).

In England:
Muntac and Chinese Water Deer - min cal .220, ME>1000 ft lbs and bullet>50gr
Roe, Sika, Fallow, Red - min cal .240 ME>1700 ft lbs which means bullet?100gr

In Scotland
Roe - bullet>50gr, MV>2450 ft/s, ME> 1000 ft lbs
Red, Fallow, Sika - bullet>100gr, MV>2450 f/s ME>1750 ft lbs

I don't think scotland has and Muntjac or CWD. They are escapees from stately homes in the South East of England and haven't spread that far yet, although the munjac will be working on it.

All very complicated, especially as the Reds in England are generally bigger than those that live on the scottish hills. I took my first last October, only a small one but I'll post a pic if you're interested.

Interesting requirements those darn Scots have imposed. They would make perfectly good sense if one were to exclude the muzzle velocity requirements (as the English have), which are just high enough to exclude many a fine hunting round. Apparently, some game department twit has decided that, say, the .458 Winchester Magnum's 500 grain bullet, pushed along at a leisurely 2150 fps, might not kill something as tough as a roe deer.:rolleyes: Even our ubiquitous .30-30, the quintessential deer round, would be excluded. Even the vaunted .375 H&H wouldn't make it with some factory 300 grain loads. *Sigh*

Oh, and by all means - post a picture; I would love to see it.

IIRC, I ordered a case from MidwayUSA.com. The Cabelas closest to me (Hoffman Estates) stocks them as well. I think my local range has them, though they disallow shooting .50 BMG.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1301713135/cci-50-bmg-primers-35

.40 takes small primers.

Thanks, I'll let the guys at the range know.

Here lately, some of the guys shooting Glocks that they've 'tweaked' are having issues lighting remington smalls.
My 1911 and 2011 extremely 'tweeked' always go bang.

:)

we should have a meet at buffalo rock. one guy brought out his 50BMG right next to me. thunderous to say the least :)

To pick a nit, some .45 ACP cases use the small pistol primer. I usually load only the large primer cases and have put aside the small primer cases until I have enough to make reloading worthwhile.

I throw mine in a box and give 'em to a guy who sells them for scrap. As far as I'm concerned, the more of these I get rid of, the less interruption in my loading cycle!

Whew, you may have just saved a life.

The 10mm auto (which was actually the original modern .40 caliber auto pistol round, developed by Jeff Cooper and friends) used a large pistol primer. Original .454 Casull cases meant for the Freedom Arms revolvers used small rifle primers. The .38-40 (which is really a .40 caliber, in spite of the ".38") uses large pistol primers, even though it was originally a rifle round, but is mainly used in revolvers today (not "pistols", but "revolvers" but, alas, there are no "revolver" primers). One can specify large or small primer pockets when ordering .22 or 6mm PPC cases. And on and on... we could go on all day like this. Generally speaking, the only hard and fast "rule" when discussing metalic cartridges is that there are exceptions to every "rule".

Very true. Just like the small/large .45 ACP.
I just jumped on the .40 because I had to change my priming system over last night.
Dillon wants my 550 back for a rebuild, and I need to load a bunch, because it will take them 10 days before they'll even get to opening the box once it arrives.