Finding Pipes In Walls

[jyl]

Are there any scanners that are effective at finding plumbing drain and electrical lines in walls?

More focused on the plumbing locations. Like, I see a drain stubout sticking out of the wall, and I want to know where it goes - right? left? down? - while cutting away as little wall covering as possible.

[look 171]

We used a Bosch unit for some time until someone needed it more then we did. Now, we just tear open everything. That's part of what we do anyway, rebuilt and need to worry no more in the upcoming years for the owner. Most are glad with that. Will try and find it for you in a few.

[look 171]

https://www.whitecap.com/product/12v-max-wallfloor-scanner-w-radar-bosch-162DTECT200C

I think it can be had for a few bucks cheaper if you look hard enough. There are others out there are cheaper but wey I see it, if we hit a pipe, the cost to repair outweights the tool by miles.

What are you looking at? Why the concern which way it runs?

[Magyar Kiwi]

Hi
You could try using a cheap Android/ USB-Powered Endoscope Camera, either push it down the pipe and/or drill small holes in the wall to view inside.
Cheers

[cabmandone]

Maybe a cheap thermal camera??

[KFC911]

Originally Posted by Magyar Kiwi

Hi
You could try using a cheap Android/ USB-Powered Endoscope Camera, either push it down the pipe or or drill small holes in the wall to view inside.
Cheers

Either improve yer AI bots or ban this one ... jmho

Even tho he might be right a lot .... LOL

[jyl]

Originally Posted by look 171

https://www.whitecap.com/product/12v-max-wallfloor-scanner-w-radar-bosch-162DTECT200C

I think it can be had for a few bucks cheaper if you look hard enough. There are others out there are cheaper but wey I see it, if we hit a pipe, the cost to repair outweights the tool by miles.

What are you looking at? Why the concern which way it runs?

I want to open up walls and ceilings so my plumber has access to run lines. It’d be nice to not have to patch more than I need to. Not sure it’d be $1,000 nice though :-)

Details: the kitchen will need a bunch of floor sinks for everything to drain to. It’s right above the basement bathroom which has toilet, shower/tub, sink, so there is a main stack to tie into somewhere there, just wish we knew where . . . the foyer (where the coffee bar will be) will need one or two floor sinks. It’s above the basement kitchen so we can tie into whatever the kitchen sink drains to, wish we knew where that goes . . .

Well, no big deal. I’m already taking the kitchen to studs for electrical access and it will need a new floor anyway, so might as well take the floor and subfloor off, then we’ll see what’s where. And the basement is all drywall (not lath) so it’s easy to open up and close up. The kitchen is all lath and plaster, but the basement was finished much later.

Thermal camera, that’s an idea, I guess if I run hot water down the drain long enough the warm pipe should be apparent in the image. I have one of those cheap borescopes too.

[Zeke]

I doubt the thermal camera will do much other than you say and they aren't a bad thing. I just wouldn't spend a lot of money. It won't show vents for instance. Electrical is easy to find. Plumbing is pretty easy looking at vents at the roof, clean outs, ect.

Do you have a permit for this. You mention floor sinks. Each counts 2 plumbing units IIRC and over a certain amount of units you need a 6" main.

The questions you ask are telling me you have no idea. Wait until you face ADA. That will change the picture dramatically.

[unclebilly]

Just use a nail and hammer… when water sprays out, you know you found a water line.

Be sure to like and follow for other helpful carpentry tips and tricks…

Seriously though, if you can access the lines in a utility room, it may provide some clues on the water line locations.

Normally in cold climates, water lines in outside walls are avoided where possible.

[gregpark]

I'd just open it all up. You're already committed to a bunch of dry wall anyway. Address electrical, plumbing and everything else in 100 walls. Replace the plaster with sheet rock. Opening walls is minor considering what you have in mind which is basically a interior remodel. Anyone who buys a 100+ year old house should be either handy or have lots of expendable cash. I give advice all the time to people who bite off a project just like this: take your time figuring a master plan, estimate the costs and time frame. Then double your cost figure, triple the estimated time frame and you'll be close to the truth

[jyl]

Originally Posted by Zeke

I doubt the thermal camera will do much other than you say and they aren't a bad thing. I just wouldn't spend a lot of money. It won't show vents for instance. Electrical is easy to find. Plumbing is pretty easy looking at vents at the roof, clean outs, ect.

Do you have a permit for this. You mention floor sinks. Each counts 2 plumbing units IIRC and over a certain amount of units you need a 6" main.

The questions you ask are telling me you have no idea. Wait until you face ADA. That will change the picture dramatically.

I have a 6” main, scoped and CIPP lined. Lucked out there, this house was originally the downstream house in a party line so they made the main from house to street larger than normal for a house. The other house got separated last year.

I will want about 4 floor sinks in the kitchen (but 3 would be manageable) and one at the coffee bar. Plus the mop sink.

Architect is working on plans for the permit application; my plumber and electrician will pull permits for their work.

The plumbing is not that easy to locate, actually. It’s a 110+ y/o three story house that has been substantially changed over the years, converted to three full units with three kitchens and three bathrooms back pre-WW2, finished basement with no cleanout (to scope we had to install a cleanout), finished attic, roof too high for me to see much. Stuff is pretty covered up and in some cases done weird. My plumber came over and looked at the job, we have some idea what we hope to tie to, but aren’t sure exactly where it is.

I’ll find what I need by opening things up, I guess. The lath and plaster is a pain to tear down and haul, if it was drywall I wouldn’t be asking about a scanner.

Everyone asks about ADA, say I’ll have to make the entire building fully ADA compliant. I guess the rules vary by locality.

Here in Portland, the city rules are as follows, for an existing building:
1. You must spend up to 25% of hard budget on ADA.
2. Your ADA work must be in the following priority order: a) accessible route from parking to building, b) accessible route to entrance, c) accessible entrance, d) accessible restroom.
3. You are not required to actually achieve ADA compliance, if it’s not doable within the budget in #1.
4. There is a program to defer ADA work, and the city has discretion to not require expenditure that would be pointless.

So, my parking lot is dirt and gravel. a) means I’ll have it dug out and have concrete poured, about 500 sf including path to the building. b) means I’ll install an exterior rated wheelchair lift from path to porch. c) means I’ll install a ramped threshold for the entry. d) means I’ll . . . realistically, I will expend the 25% budget before we ever get to the restroom, but I’ll do my best to make it accessible, but am not intending to move walls etc so there won’t quite be the 60” turning circle in there.

[GH85Carrera]

There are leak detection companies that can find a leaking pipe under concrete. Finding your plumbing in the walls should be easy for them. I have no idea what it costs.

It may well be cheaper than all new drywall and the tape and sanding and paint.

[Zeke]

I have never heard of any program that limited ADA to any % of budget. Portland must be all they say it is because I never got a break of any sort. I have heard of restrooms being grandfathered or otherwise exempted if it was really and truly impossible to expand to accommodate the 5 foot circle. That didn't mean some other ADA items were needed. You don't get a full pass.

I probably did a total of 20 tenant build outs in my career. It wasn't my thing but there were times when residential was so lean that commercial was a blessing. I worked briefly for another contractor that had lots of restaurant work. The restaurant business is so specialized that a GC doesn't have that much to do other than any structural work. The kitchen is one specialty, the seating area is another, especially when there are built-ins like booths and service stations. If there was a separate bar, that was another company. Everything including paint, trim and wall coverings are fire retardant. There was a lot of electrical and plumbing, for sure.

We took care of doors, walls and sometimes the interior carpentry if it wasn't complex and done by a millworks. We did superintend the project coordinating installations. I never did an old house conversion myself but I stopped by a few jobs like that just to talk. All I heard was nightmares.

As I said earlier, when residential work was in good shape, I gravitated back. Found myself in doors and windows for a 25 year run but the 2010 recession finally ended that once and for all. At that point I took on jobs from 3 hours to $300,000. I mainly acted as a superintendent and lead carpenter on the large residential reno projects. I learned while doing commercial about being financially exposed. One month in the 80's I had $100K run through my bank account and that month, a very good month for me, I made 5K. One hiccup would have wiped me out. As it was, one guy was going to stiff me for 5 grand. How I managed to get that money is another story. I had to do that a few times and it was mainly commercial work that put me in that kind of position.

I don't envy you doing this project. All I can say is don't get too far ahead of the process. Around here, once a food establishment is finished, it takes about 3 months to get the doors open after obtaining all the inspections and permits. God save me from the Health Dept. Of course where are they when existing restaurants are rat and roach laden, have poor food handling and general sanitation issues? It's certainly not one and done.

But to get open you can hardly get an employee locker approved (just a stupid example).

[dad911]

Drain lines can be found with a 'sewer' locating camera.

I've located hot water lines with an IR camera. Could probably find wires also, put a load on it and look for the heat.

[jyl]

Yeah, it will be an adventure? hopefully not worse.

[cabmandone]

Originally Posted by jyl

Thermal camera, that’s an idea, I guess if I run hot water down the drain long enough the warm pipe should be apparent in the image. I have one of those cheap borescopes too.

That was pretty much what I was thinking. Just run hot water and look for the warm spot in the wall.

[look 171]

Condition of the lath and plaster? Sometime, its just cheaper to tear it out and drywall over those area instead of patching. Better in the long run, no cracks and easier to manage. I would not tie into exiting line but drain them into the main way down below if possible to eliminate any issues in the future. Its a bit more money up front, but makes life easier without having to deal old metal drain pipes especially if employees and customers will be using the sinks and bathroom. they will flush all kinds of stuff down the toilet. Why do you think restaurants always have a commercial drain snake stash sway in the back room somewhere? If the plumber is taken care of his portion of work, ask the difference on price to have all those floor sinks drain into the main instead of the branch lines. Milt is correct, not too many sinks can be drained into branch lines. There's no approved plans and you are installing floor drains? What about grease traps?

I have not heard of any ADA plans like you mentioned. Down here in Commiefornia, we don't get any breaks on ADA.

I was dumb enough to build out two high end restaurants for the same family. Its all they do, upper end restaurants. I remodeled their home is how I got the restaurant remod. job. I hate the work hours and there are so many things that are foreign to me but its all in the plans.

[jyl]

Even in CA, there must be some allowances for an old building that simply isn’t practical to make fully ADA compliant? Or is the attitude they’d rather have a building sit vacant?

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by jyl

Even in CA, there must be some allowances for an old building that simply isn’t practical to make fully ADA compliant? Or is the attitude they’d rather have a building sit vacant?

That is irrelevant. ADA rules are federal standards.

[jyl]

Originally Posted by Zeke

That is irrelevant. ADA rules are federal standards.

ADA standards for existing buildings incorporate a “readily achievable” limitation.

The federal govt does not, in practice, enforce ADA standards in buildings unless they are federal buildings or there is some other special circumstance.

What is required for remodels is up to the state. Oregon apparently has a more relaxed policy about “readily achievable” than California?