Does the Honda have a turbocharger?
Does the honda have a complex mechanical injection pump?

(Did you forget that pump uses fuel as a lubricant? Ultra-low-sulphur-diesel doesn't lubricate as well....)

Assuming all of the other components are equally robust between the Honda and VW, the additional complexity and expense of those two items is enough to tip the scales. Then add the historical probability that the VW will break those shared components more often and I'd think a $750 delta over three years is a no-brainer.

Scott's 2005 Elantra with 100K miles would be a better bet than a $6000 VW TDI or a $6000 Honda Civic.

I don't know, haven't owned a VW TDI to compare with anything else. Probably a BBS somewhere with lots of actual owner experience re: major component failure. We have quite few owners here who have put 100s of thousands of miles on VW TDIs, what do you guys say about pumps and turbos failing? :)

Once again, very few people purchase a vehicle using only a spread-sheet that calculates possible/projected repairs and the (possible) difference between various choices. Sure, if a car has a horrible reliability record, that will disuade people from buying one. But barring that, actual preference wins out every time if they like one car over another. Especially for DDs, IMO. That's the one I have to live with day-in and day-out. It would kill me to drive something I don't like. :cool:

I replaced the injection pumps on both Jetta TDIs I had

I replaced the turbo on only one of the two, as well as the rest of the motor from the turbo causing catastrophic damage.

Speeder's right, of course. People will buy what they want, and what they like. Regardless of other people's experience, advice, data, or math. You like what you like.

Speeder's also right about other forums to learn about TDIs.
The one that helped me immensely as I sifted through my TDI headscratchers was TDIClub ( TDIClub Forums - Powered by vBulletin ) and they are every bit as knowledgeable and helpful as Pelican is for Porsches.

A quick search there on any snafu I've pointed out will give you hours and hours of reading. And dozens or hundreds of other owners who have encountered similar issues. If you're interested in an older TDI, it's worth spending some time on TDIClub.
EDIT: Here's the specific forum you want if considering a 1998-2006: http://forums.tdiclub.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

YMMV

Good advice, I remember that forum from years ago when I was considering a used TDI VW. I've never had one but always was intrigued by them because of the diesel mileage and the fact that I like taking really long road trips where the cost matters a lot. Not to mention saving $$ driving around town.

I never pulled the trigger on one because used prices were always too high for me. When I see a new TDI wagon, they look really appealing, however. :cool:

We have two VW TDI's and I love them.

I have a 2001 jetta that has 320,000 miles still has the original turbo, not that hard to work on and is pretty reliable. The other is a 2011 jetta and has been at the dealership for 21 days and counting.

DO Not get the automatic.

TDI Club is a great resource.

I averaged 50.5mpg last year, so I do love the mileage.

Well, yeah... it is all about the mileage... like I said, wife loves the beetle so I was thinking beetle+TDI would be a good compromise. However she would be driving the beetle (hopefully on a short commute) while I have the long commute.

I'm on my forth Hyundai and while they are soulless appliance automobiles I have had very good luck with them.

So chances are I will bump my 2010 Elantra to the wife, sell off the 2005 and get a new Hyundai.

Just wanted to treat the wife to the beetle she has always wanted, but maybe that is not in the cards.

A well maintained motor will last nearly forever. This is true of almost EVERY motor made in the last twenty years. By well maintained I don't just mean changing fluids and filters and belts on schedule. I also mean that little issues are picked-up-on and corrected before they cause more problems.

A typical scenario in a ALH TDI (or Saab 9.3/9.5) is that the crankcase ventilation systems allow oil mist to get into the intake system. The hot oil mist eventually cools and congeals on whatever surface it clings to. This is why EGRs fail and stick. Now there is particulate in the oil so the cooling oil mist hardens. This is why intakes carbon-up. This is also why oil seals fail and oil lines/passages constrict flow. Also, since the PCV system also gets clogged, pressures in the intake tract (and valve cover/head) are higher than they should be. Those pressures can push oil seals loose. The turbochargers start leaking oil internally. If it's the exhaust side, they simply burn it off as smoke, ruining catalysts but little other "damage" (other than the chance of running the motor low on oil). But if it's the intake side, it will slowly fill the intake tract. Two possibilities: one, if it's leaking large amounts very quickly it can run down the open intake valves filling the cylinder(s) causing a hydrolock that bends connecting rods and/or valves. Or two (more likely) pool oil in the lowest area of the tract. In the VWs this is the intercooler. The intercooler loses thermal efficiency, but most will never notice. No, the real "silent killer" is for the owners who almost never drive their cars hard. They love to baby it, love the great fuel economy of hypermiling. They may last hundreds of thousands of miles leaking like this. But the first (only?) time they put the pedal down hard for an extended period -- like accelerating up a long on-ramp to merge at high-speed -- they will slowly suck that oil up to the engine. Diesel engines, when warm and running, will run just fine on used motor oil. Diesel engines have no throttle to restrict the intake airflow, they meter the fuel to regulate power/rpm. So when the engine gets unmetered fuel, there is no way to stop it. It's called a runaway condition. Depending on how much oil it pooled to now siphon into the engine, it can be enough to catastrophically grenade every component in the engine, including the injection pump and turbocharger.

Don't believe this can happen? Don't believe that it happens often enough to worry about? Search: "runaway" on the TDI Club forum.

But it's a symptom of lack of "maintenance" that most people, even those one-owner babied- 150K mile cars, don't know to do. And they usually don't know it's happening.

If it never has a runaway, it may still blow the turbo (not getting enough oil via clogged oil passages/lines, or leaking oil seals means no oil at startup = bad for turbo) which is about $900 (plus $500 labor) Or prematurely wear the camshaft and cam towers (bearings) due to oil restrictions. Which is $1300 (plus equal amount labor), and head replacements are relatively common.

And there are dozens of other expensive possibilities. Including injection pumps that develop leaks because of fuel formulation changes (ULSD or Biofuel). Reseal the pump? Looking at $500-900 (plus equal amount labor), and that's if it didn't get worn or damaged. (Search: IP or injection pump or VE pump)

And notice we haven't even gotten out of the motor itself. Not the expensive alternators that fail. Not the transmission issues. Not the electrical systems of 2000ish VWs. Not all the little things that fail.

IMHO, the only mainstream vehicles that can be larger financial gambles are similar vintage Audis. Some of them last, and last. Others only will with cubic dollars helping them along the way.

If your wife has a short commute less than 30 minutes I would not buy a diesel.

Eric the runaway diesel on the ALH is very rare. I do agree about running the car hard. Turbos need to be exercised. I recommend full throttle up to 4K rpms at least a few times per tank of fuel.

Weird. I've paid a lot of bills servicing Honda's and outside of cv joints, t-belts the odd ignition issue on older cars and maybe a few emissions issues they just keep ticking. Cant say that about most vw's.

Ditto. Fewer miles (250,000) on my 2001. Same mpg.

I hear the "can't afford new" thing... But i thought I'd point out VW is offering 0.9% APR on those cars, and they are not all that expensive ($23K for mine)... And you do get 3y "free" service and whatever warranty, I forget... might be workable on monthly payments considering the time you are guaranteed not to pay for any repairs ???

I just got a new Golf Tdi myself - stick - and I'm very pleased with it so far: All modern amenities missing from my other cars (Bluetooth streaming, nice radio, more computer gizmos) and so far I'm doing 42 MPG driving it like I stole it (no babying it during break-in). Good luck whichever way you go!

Thanks for the link! I can read German. I think your summary was a little off - nothing was said about the engines not lasting. Somehow I thought they chew engine internals now, but apparently the main issue are the peripherals - expensive ones nevertheless: fuel injection, turbo and the emissions systems having to keep up with stricter regulations. The article definitely makes good points, especially reminding us of very high efficiency gas engines that easily compete with the diesel now. (Of course one has to ask if they don't use direct injection and turbocharging now too and if those aren't higher cost of ownership now too!?)

Anyways - the reason I came back to the thread was that I finally hit up my coworker if he still likes his diesel bug - it is a 2001. He says it is dead at his house with the fuel pump / fuel system bad and that he will probably end up donating it to charity. :(

It is just one datapoint, but I found it pretty disturbing ...

Cheers,

George

In Canada we've had VW diesels for years, I had an '80 (wife's DD) and '83 turbo, you couldn't kill it and the turbo went till 1998 with 800k on it.
The old rabbits were great, but that was then.

One of my best buddies is a 25year independent VW shop and he's totally of the opinion that once you tally all expenses of a diesel for the life of the car, the best case scenario is breaking even with a gas model. The initial cost, maintenance and service will negate any fuel savings.

Not a bad idea... personally I prefer the Golf to the Bug... however neither wife or I like the styling on the new bug (though she LOVES the old bugs).

Lot of expenses right now... wife moving from Portland OR. to San Pedro in September. Maybe next year depending on if she finds work etc.

Some good comments.

Having had VW diesels of several vintages, I thought I'd chime in.

Something no one mentioned about the newer diesels is the torque. The difference this makes to the driving experience can be amazing over the long haul.
Before I bought my 06 (PD) Jetta, I tried a Mazda 3 Sport and a Honda Civic, among others. The Civic was reported to get almost the same mileage in everyday driving, but the experience was drastically different.

It's a good thing Honda has one of the best shifters in the business, because you need to be rowing the thing constantly. Want to keep up with traffic? Downshift, come to a hill? Downshift. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a manual transmission, as does my wife, but there are times you want to snick through the gears and times you want the car to have some stones.

With the diesel, the experience is the opposite. If you have 1900 RPM on the clock, you are good to go. The car just pulls. Couple that with the unflappable chassis on the Jetta of that era and it is a good car to deliver you to where you need to be.

The beetle? Can't stand having the windshield a yard away.

Auto transmissions on early 2000s VWs? The shop that services my car (ex dealer), is doing conversions to manual transaxles. They change the pedal cluster and shifter and re-flash the computer. No more crappy auto-boxes.

Best of luck.
Les

LOL! Yeah... we test drove a few... I was "meh"... but wife thinks they are "cute"... they smell funny too, salesman said it was the glue they used on the interior (smells like crayons) do all VW's have that smell?

I know the 01's smell like crayons.

+1 on the torque.

Tdi
 

:cool::cool:

i get much better than 40-mpg with my 2003 beetle tdi, i get 47-mpg city and 53-,mpg hwy regularly.

I cant believe in this day age that car makers still put in those crappy headliners that fall.
we had an old Volvo that had some kind of "solid" headliner. maybe like rubber or vinyl. anyway, it could never fall like the cloth ones. never could understand why they were never used more, perhaps price.