Educate me on newer model Suburbans
 

My Sequoia is getting long in the tooth, and I am starting to think about replacements. I really like the new 4Runner Trail, but at >40k out of the door it isn't going to happen and used new model 4Runners are ridiculously expensive, to the point where you may as well buy new. Even once these are at 3 years, I doubt they are a bargain. American SUVs on the other hand have steep depreciation trends and may be the better buy used?

This is how I arrived at the Suburban. I don't like the Ford lineup and you will not get me in a Chrysler product. I need a frame and rugged 4wd and room. Before the Sequoia I had an Excursion and it was just about right in size! The Sequoia is a bit small in the back when traveling with >5 people.

I am thinking budget of $20k private party. 4wd, 3rd row seat.
- Are good trucks available in this range?
- What engine is best?
- Would the new body style be something to strive for over the old? I don't care about looks.
- How about the GMC vs. Chevy, is that just a trim package or is there really something to be had?
- Any advantage going to a 2500 if towing isn't a big concern. (Any of these will pull a car trailer or small camper).
- What are common problems to look out for, especially large ticket items. (And is there a large ticket item that may be a good buy if I DIY repair)? I.e. on the Sequoia I bought it at a large discount due to it needing a timing belt.
- Any of you have a suburban? What are the pros and cons?

Thanks!

George

I am thinking budget of $20k private party. 4wd, 3rd row seat.
- Are good trucks available in this range?
Yes, should be plenty to choose from.
- What engine is best?
IIRC there are really only 2 choices, 5.3 and 6.0
- Would the new body style be something to strive for over the old? I don't care about looks.
My next door neighbor is VP Marketing GM, told us recently that the Tahoe line is getting a restyle next year.
- How about the GMC vs. Chevy, is that just a trim package or is there really something to be had?
Trim package although I believe Yukons are full time auto 4WD and the Denalis have an optional 6.2.
- Any advantage going to a 2500 if towing isn't a big concern. (Any of these will pull a car trailer or small camper).
Don't know, my Tahoe with 5.3 is a torque monster.
- What are common problems to look out for, especially large ticket items. (And is there a large ticket item that may be a good buy if I DIY repair)? I.e. on the Sequoia I bought it at a large discount due to it needing a timing belt.
Ours is a bought new 01' Tahoe with 100,000+ on the clock. Replaced a fuel pump and did a front suspension refresh, other than that oil, gas and go.
- Any of you have a suburban? What are the pros and cons?
Suburbun is BIG, massive, forget about parallel parking it. We were originally looking at them and went down to the Tahoe which is plenty big enough for us, YMMV.

It's been an awesome vehicle, worth every penny and then some. It's getting long in the tooth but my wife still loves it.

don't have one, but we ran six 4wd versions up the middle of the river in Canyon de Chelly with water up to the top of the running boards. We should have been doing a Suburban commercial. The things were beasts and awesome and not one got stuck or stalled from the water.

They are fantastic trucks if you have a need for such a vehicle. Not very economical but they function really well as a DD. Nice rigs.

THEY EAT BRAKES

we ran government striped models but over loaded 8300lbs 4 tons plus
early ones had no headliner or a/c [mid 70's]
over time they got better equipment a/c am/fm decent seats ect 80-90's

but ours were junk after 100k miles
but a very good thing to get hit in
we often would get hit by idiots who got carted off as a result
while we could always drive away uninjured
one time a kid ran a light and hit a cop then both the kid and the cop hit our sub
both cars totaled both kid and cop in meat wagons
4 of us in the sub drove away with two big dents

a good thing because you sure can't dodge anything
sub's donot handle they plow

I had a 97 Tahoe for 10 years with a 5.7 litre. Basic maintenance, nothing major. The fuel pump crapped out on Christmas one year.
I now have an 06 Tahoe with a 5.3. Gobs of power but thirsty for gas. Great vehicle.
The Suburban is the same vehicle except for the size.
I would stay away from the 6 litre engine. They are awful on gas.

We have a 08 2500 suburban we picked up in feb to tow the race car. Originally the truck was to be my dd, but my wife liked it so much that it became her car. This is a testament to the latest platform. I had the previous gen 2500 before and it handled like a lumber wagon compared to the new one. We have the 6.0 and it burns fuel, but our commutes are both short so it isn't a big deal. We hauled out to Road America with it last week with my 6 month old son and it was a great road trip car.

We have a 08 2500 suburban we picked up in feb to tow the race car. Originally the truck was to be my dd, but my wife liked it so much that it became her car. This is a testament to the latest platform. I had the previous gen 2500 before and it handled like a lumber wagon compared to the new one. We have the 6.0 and it burns fuel, but our commutes are both short so it isn't a big deal. We hauled out to Road America with it last week with my 6 month old son and it was a great road trip car.

They are fantastic trucks if you have a need for such a vehicle.
http://www.onfish.info/h.jpghttp://www.onfish.info/d.jpg

I'd look for one w/ a 6 speed auto trans if available in your price range.

The newer bodystyle (2007+) are a huge improvement over the prior model, interior quality is greatly improved and they are much nicer to drive. I had one as a rental for a week and was very impressed, they drive much smaller than they are. I also averaged right at 20 MPG on the highway on a 2011 2wd 5.3 1500 model. Be careful with the option packages, there's a lot of cheap ones that are super basic inside.

Have you considered a Nissan Armada? We just sold my wife's when we bought her a new F150, hers was a 2004 model (first year), SE package, 2wd. We sold it at 110k, it was overall a nearly flawless vehicle. It has more room than the Expedition/Tahoe/Sequoia but is smaller than the Suburban, and does have some creative design touches that the Suburban lacks. The V8 isn't the best MPG but is fantastic, it's super responsive, has lots of power, and sounds like a muscle car. You can easily find a 2004-2007 in your price range, the 2008+ is much nicer inside but also a bit more money. Give it a look if you don't need the immense size of the Suburban, I thought of it as an affordable Sequoia.

Thanks for all the input guys!

I had a new model Suburban as a rental when the Excursion was totaled. It was a very nice vehicle indeed. Sounds like I should save up for one of those and skip the earlier model. If they are doing a refresh on the Tahoe, I am sure they will include the Suburban. That may help with pricing coming down a little more.

I can't get better than 15 mpg highway with the Sequoia, so anything closer to 20 would be good already.

I do "need" the vehicle. I have kids and we have a couple hunting dogs and go to the woods and snow together, so I need a 4wd. Also, we have family visiting frequently and it is nice to go all out on road trips in the same vehicle (3rd row seat).

While a high center of gravity vehicle isn't great at highway speeds, it really is good in town to stay safe from texting idiots. My family would have been seriously hurt if not killed if they hadn't been in that Excursion we had before we bought the Sequoia. Can you imagine the impact you need in a rear-end scenario to cause $25k damage to an Excursion with a Honda Accord?

I don't like Nissans. Their styling rubs me the wrong way and they have a cheapness about them that I can't put my finger on. I also think going big is the right way this time, the Sequoia really isn't cutting it on the road trips! :)

G

we have 2005 Yukon XL 2500 with the 6.0 and Quadrasteer. If you ever get a chance to drive a quadrasteer, do it. You will be amazed at the turning radius. The stock shocks on the 1/2 ton (1500) with the autoride with compressor are around $450 per corner. the 2500 doesn't have the air shocks, but still have the electronic valving. I bought very nice HD Bilsteins for $90 per corner. Car is thirsty, but we knew that going in. With the 2500, I would almost recommend the 8.1 over the 6.0 as the mileage delta isn't that great between the 2 (1-2 MPG) but the extra 100 foot pounds is nice.

Ours is very comfortable and we will never sell it. 80k miles and it's been trouble free. We have 80% brakes on our pads (disc front and rear) so I am not sure about the above comment about brakes.

Well then they must not have a high center of gravity because they're great at highway speeds. Just set the cruise and try not to fall asleep. Sitting in a loaded new Suburban with leather is like being in a private jet that never leaves the ground. And I'm with you on the Nissans. They are cars that are designed to look good to lower-priced buyers in the showroom but their cheapness comes shining through in short order. :cool:

The intake gaskets leak. The auto t-cases wear out taking the front diff with them. The trannys are good for 100k. Anything after that is a bonus mile. Guages go wonky, prndl lights go out. Electric wiring nightmares. Moisture in ecm connectors makes electric fans come on with key off. Rear wiper and defroster wiring shorts out in rear hatch, melts plastic. Air bags on autoride develope leaks easily making the compressor run till it burns up. There is a reason GM went bankrupt. I would avoid 2005 and up like the plague. That is all.

We own a 2003 Avalanche 5.3 (same frame/drivetrain as the older Suburbans) and a 2007 Denali. Talk about American cars going forever.... Just some electrical hiccups on the Avalanche after 9 years of batteries and tires.

The Avalanche still runs the original brake pads. Avg MPG on the Avalanche is 16. 5.3 sounds funny upon startup (piston slap) but has never failed nor smoke.

The Denali is a 6.2 awd and it is a leap in fit/finish over the Avalanche. Now it kills tires and burns gas like mad (MPG about 11). Finicky on the alignment department. We bought first year and it was delivered to us in January so perhaps we got one of the trucks built during the learning curve.

Engine is robust and has a nasty roar! The leather is much more supple than on the Avalanche but it shows. Whereas there is no tear or crack on the Avalanche, the Denali shows wear.

Where GM made a massive mistake is on the 3rd row seats which do not fold down flat and take quite a bit of storage space. When they are open (ours is the "short version") you have about 12 inches of space behind them only.

I disagree with you on the Nissan point. At 110k ours still drove great, we had zero issues on it after buying with 65k. I did front pads once and regular fluid changes, that's it. When we sold it the interior looked just as good as when we bought it, i.e. nearly new. Because they hold their value well, I sold it for just $1500 less than I purchased it for over two years and 45k ago. Your comment might apply to some Nissans, but I was very impressed with the Armada. Had we bought another SUV it would have been a newer Armada.

If you want to stick around $20K, you're going to find more of the 'old' bodystyle (2000-2006) than 'new' (2007-up).

So, in the old bodystyle you have the choice of the Chevrolet Suburban, GMC Yukon XL, or Cadillac Escalade ESV. There is really no difference between the Chev and GMC until you look at GMC's Denali version. The 1/2 ton versions of the 'normal' Chev/GMC are 5.3L V8, 4 speed auto (4L60E) and have the Autotrac pushbutton transfer case with neutral and low range, but also allows for automatic engagement of 4WD. There was an all wheel drive option with the lower trim levels but not the norm. All Denali/Escalades had the 6.0L V8, same 4 speed auto, and they were all wheel drive, no 4WD option (no low range, no locked ratio). Denali/Escalade all had AutoRide levelling suspension, which was also a popular option in the regular trim levels. The only 1/2 ton Suburban to offer the 6.0L (AWD) was the 2006 LTZ trim level, again mechanically identical to a Denali or Escalade.

There is little difference, mechanically, between the 2003-2006 5.3L and 6.0L. Both are good motors that will darn near last forever. The 6.0L had/has more occurance of piston-slap, sometimes pronounced (although it didn't hurt the longevity of the motor). The fuel economy difference is almost nil if apples-to-apples equipped, which is hard to do....some of the mpg difference is the all wheel drive system of the 6.0s. The 2006 Sub 6.0L LTZ AWD, Denali, and Escalade were all rated 12 mpg city and 16 mpg freeway. The base 5.3L 4WD was rated 13 mpg city and 17 freeway. Most buyers wouldn't consider one mile per gallon a difference between buying one or not. Oh, and you'll also see that the Escalade recommends premium grade fuel, which is ONLY a marketing ploy to advertise a higher power rating for their 'premium' Caddy.....there is no physical difference in the motor, just mapping software that can take advantage of higher octane when you're using it. But it's still as happy with regular fuel as any other 6.0L.

If you're not towing there is very little reason to get the 2500. But one non-towing reason is to get the 6.0L motor with the 4WD transfer case, not the permanent all wheel drive. A 6.0L 2500 4WD in 2WD mode gets better fuel economy than a 6.0L 1500 AWD, if they have the same diff ratios (typically 3.73). The 3/4 ton also has a full-floating rear end, bigger bearings, bigger heat-sink brakes, and rear leaf springs instead of coils. The 8.1L is a great motor, but you have zero need for it.

Common issues are usually pretty small potatoes. The fuel pump is in-tank and relatively labor intensive to change out. Figure $200 for the part and $200 for labor. They usually last 100-150K miles, but when they go it leaves you stranded. Gauges, as someone mentioned, can go haywire from the circuit boards warping. They can be fixed. Tamas Oprah (sp?) here on the board rebuilds them. It's not very expensive. The rest is just typical wear item stuff like brakes, wheel bearings, seals and gaskets, etc. Look for leaks and it looks like it's been leaking awhile, figure it damaged whatever is leaking (diff, axle, TC, trans, etc). Parts are cheap, and plentifully available used and aftermarket. Mechanically, they are one of the most common platforms in the world. They build a million of them every year.

My current '03 Sub 2500 has 260K miles with original engine, transmission, transfer case, and differentials. And it runs like a swiss watch. Everything works. It still looks good. Still the original fuel pump too. This is not atypical. You'll find several 200-400K mile 00-06 Subs for sale on CL and eBay.

IF you can find a 2007-up, the interior fit and finish is generally better, and the dash is more attractive. The third row seat is easier to remove because it splits in two pieces (the older ones are HEAVY) but less comfortable because of the split. The power liftgate is a nice option, as is the back-up camera....neither were available in the old-body. Mechanically, there is very little difference between the old and new....they use the same frame. But, the aluminum 6.2L 6 speed AWD drivetrain in the Denali and Escalade is OMG awesome, if you can afford one. The later 5.3L versions also got 6 speed automatics, and it made a real-world difference in both performance and fuel economy. The 2007-2008 5.3L E85 4WD versions had aluminum blocks where the non-E85 were cast iron. Mostly just weight-saving and a small difference in handling.

Thanks again everyone and thanks for the memory dump Kaisen.

The fuel pump is a real worry in the boonies. That's not something you can DIY on the side of the road. Would it be prudent to change this every100k to ensure not getting stranded where I'd hike out 30 miles to get cell service?

What does make them fail?

G

I have a 2002 1500 Suburban. Bought new. 205K miles. Have replaced fuel pump and rear diff in that period. Wouldn't think twice about driving it cross country.

Wife has 2008 Tahoe. Just crossed over 100K. No work other than maintenance. Would've inherited this one but it doesn't have enough space for my track stuff, plus I like the longer wheelbase for towing. We just went to on vacation with three teenagers. Couldn't fit the family and all the luggage in the Tahoe. Suburban carried all five of us plus 14 pieces of luggage in the back.

Would love to get a newer one but I've really gotten used to not having a car payment :)

No car payments here either, otherwise I'd buy that new 4runner. (I know the 4 runner doesn't meet the size requirement, but is very tempting for its off road abilities). I always pay cash for my vehicles. Often I save for years to get them. But that beats a car payment ... I don't like to be on the hook for fixed expenses every month aside from housing / utilities. If you have ever been unemployed or close to it, you will understand!


G

One of the contributors to failure is running the tank low.

They rely on being submerged for cooling.

Always top off at half a tank.

That and I think 100k is just average life for the unit.

I replaced mine myself, ***** of a job.

Unlike a car where you can normally access the pump from under the rear seat with trucks you generally need to drop the tank.

It's like wrestling with a coffin.

Would not do it again.

I've had people say they wouldn't buy a GM truck because of the fuel pump "issues" every 100-150K miles

Really?

Just treat the pump like preventative maintenance if you're scared. It's not a big deal.
It's still cheaper than doing a timing belt service on an old Sequoia.

Just did a pump in one of these recently, not a bad job at all.

In the past year my rear diff cover and rear brake lines have rusted away. Again, not bad jobs and parts are generally inexpensive. Hard to beat these trucks if you dont mind the average interior of the earlier models.

I did it on my old Bronco (95). It left the wife stranded when she was sick, going to the pharmacy for meds. Great thing was that I just had filled it up, so I had to deal with almost 30 gal. of fuel ... That killed my love for the truck (after doing a cracked head job 2 months prior). I put a new pump in it and put it on craigslist the next WE. ;) Cool truck, but it worried me in the boonies ...

G

Indeed. That timing belt job took 8h of my time. Ridiculous that they'd put a belt on a truck engine (I realize it isn't solely a truck engine). Overall, I do not think the early Sequoia is all it is cracked up to be in terms of Toyota reliability ...

I have almost 160k on it now - it is due for the next belt at 210k. It will be gone before then. I think selling it at 180-190k will get better money than going over 200k. It is due for tires soon, so that's a reason I was thinking about replacements!

G

i thought the new four runner was huge on the inside? i love the new boxy version.

those new suburbans..or yukon XL's are massive. i like them, tho..just no need for one in my life.

Well, it is getting close to the size of the 1st gen Sequoia (this is my impression, not measurements / data). It also has an optional 3rd row seat that nicely folds down flat into the floor.

http://medicaltourismbusinessnetwork...eally-want.jpg

That said, it is much smaller than a Suburban. But it also gets better fuel mileage. Maybe I should consider a car payment. ;)

G

No love for the previous generation 4Runner? You can get it with a fold flat 3rd row seat (2004+), V6 or V8, it's just as capable off road as the new one, has a huge aftermarket, and you can get a really nice one for $20k. I had a 2003 V6 4x4 Sport that I bought new and sold to Paul (Seahawk) at about 65k, he's well over 100k with no issues. All that I did was fluids while we owned it, and we routinely got 24 MPG highway.

I really like the new ones, but DAMN they are expensive.

I just had a Suburban rental for the last few weeks, it was a late model with 20K miles. It was comfortable and drove well however it's a slug compared to my 02 Tahoe.

My wife looked at it and said "too small" after peeking into the driver's side window. I will revisit this myself. It is tempting due to the fuel mileage and the solid platform the truck is built on. I did not know about the 3rd row on the 2004+, that is definitely a huge plus!

G

145K on the odo. She loves it still. Great SUV if the size is right.

I rented a brand new Sub on an extended trip two years ago to the western test ranges. I flew into LA, hit Mojave, China Lake, 29 Stumps, Yuma, White Sands, back to Edwards, and then over to Phoenix to see my daughter then to Nellis in Vegas.

I spent the majority of my time on back roads, goat trails...the long way around.

The Sub was freakin' great, an absolute pleasure in all manner of comfort and performance. I am looking hard at a new one given it's towing capability and the fact that I want to keep my F150 as the farm truck.

I was told not to let the fuel tank go below 1/4 tank. The gas actually cools the fuel pump.
We were driving to Florida in my friends 02 GMC 3500 p/u with a 6 litre. He likes running the tank to empty. Just after filling up the fuel pump failed within the hour.
One other thing. I was told the fuel filter in my 06 is in the fuel tank. So I guess I have to change both when the pump fails.

1500s are for wussies....itty bitty brakes and suspension for a big SUX.

Big diff with the 2500. I had 100K miles on the original brakes.

Fuel pump can be changed just by lowering rear of tank. The pump fits inside a spring loaded fuel level sending unit. You have to replace the whole unit. The design seems a little goofy with a relief valve that is after the main filter sock. Once the main sock gets clogged unfiltered gas can wear out the brushes in the pump if you live in dusty areas. Mine did last for 170k miles on an 01.

I've had a 82(diesel yikes!), 87, 94, 01 and now an 07. The 01 was the best IMO. It was lighter and got almost 18mpg on hwy. 07 gets 15mpg everywhere. Gearing plays a big part though. None were used for heavy towing.

Smell/check condition of transfer case fluid as most do not get the $17 a quart fluid changed at recommended interval. It holds a bit less than 2 qts.

Always did fluid and filter changes on trans in mine so no trannny issues even after 175k miles. The 07 did have its trans repalced right after warranty when my folks owned it.