Owning a modern P-car without a warranty?
 

I've been buying CPO cars, and turning them in before the warranty expires. I've done this because the idea of owning a Mercedes or a Porsche without a warranty scares me. So many horror stories floating around.

My 997S warranty is up next month, so I've been looking around. Am I being foolish? The 997 only has 21k on it. Its been maintained well. The internet is rife with stories from owners who have experienced nightmarish problems, but then again, you never hear from the thousand of people who have driven their cars for year without major problems.

A) Is it reasonable to expect that I can drive my 997 for another 30-40k without a major melt down? Its never been tracked, and most of the time (note, 'most' :D) its been driven in a sane manner.

B) Can anyone recommend a high deductible 'engine go boom' insurance that would cover me if the IMS goes bad or some other major failure? I don't mind shelling over $2k for a repair. $20k would not be cool.

I bought my '01 Mercedes in 2005 with a warranty. Never came close to breaking even on it. It's been out of warranty for a couple of years and I didn't bother renewing. No regrets.

For a 997 (which is pretty reliable AFAIK) with 21k miles I'd say you're probably throwing money away for an extended warranty. With that many miles if something were going to go catastrophically wrong, it would have by now. The failures you'll see will be from under-use or age, not from design or manufacturing flaws at this point. My $0.02, YMMV.

Me personally? I'd go without it and keep a beater around to use "just in case". If the engine ever goes kablammo you can deal with it then, sell the car, whatever and at least still have transportation.

A warrantly is probably $4k or more. I'd take the gamble between keeping the $4k in my pocket and the $8k out of pocket if the engine goes.

I don't know much about modern Porsches, having not worked on them even one bit.

But I have had to, by necessity, start working on 2000s BMWs and MBs. I'm convinced that modern BMWs and MBs are, quality-wise, not much different than a modern Toyota or Honda or maybe even Chevy.

That's the secret to the $349/month lease for a BMW or MB.

For example, I replaced the starter on our '07 328i yesterday. 32K miles, and the starter is fried. Upon taking it out, I could see that it is about the size of your fist, made in Hungary, and smelling of burned out, overworked electrics. I've also found out that these cheap, undersized starters are notorious for their early deaths.

In the old days (say, 1980) there was a huge difference in the quality of construction and materials between, say, a Honda or Mercedes. Frankly, a 1980 Mercedes was designed and built to last 30+ years, while a 1980 Honda was not. These days, it looks to me like the only real difference is the badge on the hood. No production car seems designed to last past 10 years (MB with its biodegradeable wire harnesses, all the plastics in the engine compartment that become brittle in 5 years, etc.)

Anyways, I think on a 5 year old, 21K mile car that has had a good history, you're still pretty safe on not having a $20K repair. I'd take the risk of going the next 30K miles without a major repair, and pass on the extended warranty. I think it's more when these cars are 12-15 years old, with 120K+ miles on them, that they will become potentially very expensive to keep on the road.

There is no doubt in most folks minds that most modern cars are so high tech the average person (or indy shop) can't do the repairs because you don't have a 1/2 million dollar stash of specialty tools and computer diagnostic equipment. That means if you need a repair you will probably end up at the stealership paying an exorbitant amount.

As far as whether to keep the 997. This may sound strange but I would feel better keeping a 60-75k car than a 21k car. With super low miles, there may be flaws that haven't shown up yet. Think late 80's 3.2L's that had valve guides go bad 25-50k...

I've been keeping track of the repairs on my Cayenne, it's way, way, beyond 4k. It's under warranty for five more years from PCNA , after that it's gone. My indy can do some of the work on it, I've asked. But when it came to the mirrors all operating backwards and the gas flap opening when I unlocked the doors, it's a dealer only thing.

I remember recently when the rear hatch handle broke it was $1100 to replace that guy and to reprogram the security computer. Oil leak from the turbo exit line was like $1900. Hell an oil change is $250.

MY wires cpo warranty expired a couple months ago. We have 75k miles on her cayenne.

Drive shaft blew. 1200 went fast.

For that amazing car I think its well worth the extended waranty.

Cars cost money.

Porsches are more expensive cars.

So, they're either going to cost you money in terms of depreciation and cost-of-money
OR
They're going to cost you money in terms of maintenance and repair

When you buy a brand new car, you will have zero repairs and zero-to-very little maint, but huge depreciation and cost-of-money (more $$$ spent up front)

When you buy a newer used CPO you pay less than new, but you bought an expensive warranty built into the CPO price. Depreciation is less (but still significant) and cost-of-money is less (but still significant). Your repairs are still nearly zero and you'll spend the same to maintain a CPO car over, say, three years as you will a used car.

When you buy an older used car you pay much less up front, your depreciation is very little, but you assume expensive repair risks. Maintenance isn't any more than a CPO car.

Pay up front in depreciation/cost-of-money, pay mid-term with less depreciation but the expense of a warranty (and/or CPO), or risk paying in the long run with repairs.

Which is the lesser of evils?

Hard Drive is in a better position because he already owns the 997. It has low miles. He knows its history and how it's been taken care of. He's been under warranty to hedge his bet. It's been a good car. So the risk moving forward is lessened. If he sells it and buys another CPO, he'll easily "lose" $10-20K in the next few years. If he keeps it and faces repairs will he spend that same $10-20K? Does it matter? He either "may" spend it, or he "will" spend it.

Another Pelican PM'd me about buying a new $60K car. I can the same model two years old for $30K. If he buys the new one (I think he will) he is guaranteed to lose $25-30K in two years in depreciation alone. Somehow we're more comfortable with this than we are assuming the possibility of spending half that in repairs.

YMMV

Good points by Eric. I vote keep the 997, they are known for being very reliable cars. Ultimately if you take a bath on trade in then purchase something more expensive, you're guaranteed to be upside down money wise. I'd rather bet than a generally reliable car will continue to be reliable.

It depends whether u feel comfortable with or without a warranty. If you are used to a warranty then go out and buy an extended one. Or else take a chance and not buy one. I bought my 2001 Boxster base cheap enough that I can afford the repairs. It had 30k miles on it a year ago and now has 40k . I have no ext. warranty and have spent $900 having cv joints redone and a discretional $800 on the ims guardian?
Ext. warranty companies are in the business of making $$$. It is a form of insurance. No claim they win. You claim they lose. But read the fine print for limited claims etc. What do u feel comfortable with?

Some food for thought. The guy selling the warranty is out to make money. In fact he is taking your $x,xxx and planning on paying out less than that to the insureds. He has better data than you on the costs he will pay out. If the average cost of a covered repair only 10x of the premium and it only happens 1% of the time, he has collected 100x and paid out 10x. That mean he pocketed 90x of the money.

As Clint liked to say "do you feel lucky?"

I've done well with warranties. My wife's 328i did not come with a CPO warranty, but she got the stealer to throw in an aftermarket one with the sale. As soon as it got hot this year, her a/c went out. $1800 repair and she didn't pay a dime. I know the dealer sells those warranties for far more than it costs them. But even if they sold it to her outright for cost, she'd be ahead of the game now and has four yrs. left to go.

Ditto for my bike. I got them to throw in a five. yr. warranty with the sale. Would have cost me $1k to buy and I've had that much in repairs in two yrs. Pretty sure I'll have something else go wrong in the next three yrs.

It's one of those questions that is impossible to answer definitively. How much is the insurance policy? (It's not a warranty, but that sounds better so they call them that). What does it cover? What are the deductibles?

On certain vehicles, an insurance/service policy would be a great thing to have, assuming that the terms were reasonable. A low-mileage 997 is unlikely to need expensive repairs, but it will need expensive wear items, which are not covered by any insurance policy. I.E., tires/brake pads/clutches/etc... Even those things won't come up much if you hardly drive the thing. 21k miles in 8 years?? Jesus, drive that heap. You only go around once. ;)

I've mentioned before that I know 3 guys with early 997s that have actually driven them, (100k+ miles on each). All three have been absolutely bullet-proof, no mechanical failures at all. So-called Toyota PU truck reliability. But that's too small a sample to be scientific. What does Consumer Reports or other agregate sites say about an '05 997? :cool:

Most service plans are a major sucker-bet and huge $$ makers for the dealer selling it and the insurance company.

The smart owner knows what the particular model is known to have issues with. I have a friend that runs an Indy and he tells me about the newer p-car's foibles.

The Cayenne is a heavy pig that eats brakes and drive shafts on a regular basis. One is a wear item the other would be covered under a warranty.

My old Yukon 2500 had a warranty for 7 years and 100K miles. It was in the Dealer every five-six months to fix something.....the internet stories on the model were spot on. They fixed everything and the fixes held. The brakes are original and the ride has 120K miles on it.

Do you have a shop you like for maintenance/repair? I'd ask them before you did anything. As with most respondents, I think you have a pretty low chance of failure, the problem is the failure could be extremely costly. If you like the car, and are only thinking of a change for warranty's sake - I'd look into a ESC. If you want something new(er) as well, why not?

edit: sorry I don't have any specific info on the 997 (so far out of my budget I haven't even looked for fun). However, I'd say the biggest risk you run is buying a ESC (Extended Service Contract) that the dealer/shop you want to go to, gets bent on. That's why I would check with them first, to make sure you don't get taken twice (once on the contract, again when it doesn't cover what you need).

True and most people won't need it, or at least the full value of it over the period covered. The reality is that if you can afford to pay for an unlikely catastrophic event, statistically it makes sense to forego an expensive warranty. Cheers

I've read that a lot of extended warranties have wording in the fine print that doesn't cover known catastrophic failures (i.e. a warranty might exclude the failure of fasteners but IIRC the final straw of IMS failure is the fastener letting go) so you're screwed. I've never owned a car with an extended warranty (although my Jetta was at the dealer all of yesterday for warranty work) so I can't comment. Personally, I'd rather have the factory workshop manuals and tech specs than a warranty.

OT but I am starting to lust after a 997 ...

Several types of owners: Checkbook owners, DIY owners and a mixture of the two.

Checkbook owners must open theirs more often.

A generic Scan Tool is what, $100? And a set of tools?

If you want excitement and a reliable, low-maintenance car, your choices are limited. Find an example and be happier. Otherwise, increase maintenance income or perform more manual labor (improve the craft).

Sherwood

With all due respect Sherwood, it is obvious that you don't work on newer cars. For example, if you disconnect the radio on a BMW, it has to be re-registered via computer and it can only be done by a dealership. A simple scan tool is great for older cars.

Have worked on new/prototype factory vehicles up until 2011 as part of training contracts. I'm familiar with the technologies.

As for bimmer radios, yeah, go ahead and default that step to the dealer or independent. Otherwise, don't touch the radio or live with the bimmer repair procedure.

Dealership techs aren't any brighter than techs of old, just better trained. Most electronics diagnosis is conducted in a "black box" mode. (Does it do this or that?) Most independents don't have access to the special tools at the factory level yet they manage fine.

If you don't want to work on the brakes, change the oil/filter/spark plugs, adj. the valves, replace a sensor, etc., that's between you and your repair shop. That includes early, non-ECU models as well as late 911s. I was just trying to help clarify the categories of car ownership who are w/o warranty. Same as home, RV or boat ownership and the ROW.

Sherwood

I sold my 2006 997 after CPO was out. Would not buy any newer Porsche without one.

You can still DIY a lot of work on modern cars. I've done a ton of work on 996s, the only thing requiring a pro was resetting the airbag light after I replaced the faulty seatbelt latches. Even the Maserati, the only big item is the clutch that requires a dealership SD2/3 computer for proper alignment and calibration. Otherwise it's just a car.

I have 3 don't be a panzy :D

Of your stable, only the Cayman would qualify as newer Porsche in this discussion! The Cayenne is not a boxer engine. It's classification as a Porsche is debatable in many circles as well. SmileWavy

Alright, I'm going in. I'm going to get the 'major' service done next week and have them fix a few things. It goes off CPO mid September.

I like this beast. If it goes to hell and ends up costing me a fortune, you will assuredly hear about it.

Thanks for all the input.

Eric already spelled it out earlier in the thread, but cars are always going to cost you money. You can drive newer cars and pay more up front and take greater depreciation hits. Or you can go older and budget for repairs. There's no such thing as a free lunch

The real expensive repairs on a p-car cannot be done with a $100 scanner. Accessing the SRS system for instance, the security system, the central control module for the custom user settings for things like the how the car unlocks, and where the seats stay.

You can't even get the correct codes from a generic scanner for coil pack failures. You're going to need a PIWS or something even more expensive. Luxury bands have been like since the late 90's. Many of us remember how you had to have a Hammer to work on 911's of that era.

An extended warranty is nothing but an insurance policy. You have to ask yourself if you are going to self-insure or buy insurance.

My rule is that anything non-catastrophic is self-insured. The money I save over the years is applied if I have a "claim".

- No pet insurance.
- No extended warranties on electronics or appliances.
- Only collision on cars worth $10k or less.
- No CPO or extended warranties on cars.

Where do you put your limit for self-insurance? I would definitely NOT get into another CPO or buy more warranty. A 997 is a toy and not required for basic transportation - so if you can't pay for the repair right away, it won't kill you to have it sit for 6 months or start the R&R yourself to save some $$$.

You need insurance on your life (if you have a family to feed), your health, your house and liability insurance. That's about it IMHO.

G

If you are gonna lose sleep over it, just pony up for the warranty. Sleep is important.

Personally, I hate extended warranties. I have bought a few and always feel like I paid all the major repair bills up front... before they were needed. If the insurance guys like the odds enough to offer the warranty, I figure my odds are much better without it. If stuff breaks, I'll get it fixed. Right now I have 10 vehicles, no warranties.

I forgot to ask: Do you have track insurance?

Well, there is your answer! :D

G

That's not anything that should deter a DIY mechanic though. Our local quality Porsche indie charged me $70 to read the airbag codes, then I went home and replaced the buckles. I diagnosed a coil pack failure in about 5 minutes on my Boxster using my generic OBD reader, just move the coil pack and see if the generic misfire code follows it. It is more challenging than a 1970 911 with Webers, but I also don't miss no a/c, difficult cold starts, poor mpg, etc.

I think the sweet spot for vehicles was the Carrera era, as they had simple EFI systems and vehicle systems but offered excellent drivability and reliability. A good DIY mechanic can fix a 1980s to early 1990s vehicle in their driveway with simple tools.

My 2 cents...I'm about to go off CPO with a 2006 C4S. I've looked into extended warranties mainly because over the years I've benefitted from having an extended warranty. My first lesson was a Dodge Ram 2500 4x4 with Cummins Turbo I-6, which required replacement of virtually every moving part in the front end (ball joints, stabilizer bars, tie rods) a little over 2 months after the factory warranty expired. I had purchased an extended warranty with the vehicle, so that coverage kicked in and it only cost me a day at the shop and $50 deductible ($1500 warranty, $6000 parts and labor bill Dodged, no pun intended). My C4S has a CPO warranty, which is good as the engine started to tick within weeks of picking it up at the dealer (used car, Canada spec.) Dealer diagnosed it as 'lifter noise' and changed 8 lifters on bank 2. No difference other than creating oil leaks. Over the spring and summer of 2011 it progressively got worse, getting louder when hot, oil consumption climbing to 1 quart every 300 mi or so. Drivers side exhaust got sootier and sootier. Finally fed up, I recorded the cacaphony of clanking with my digital camera, and uploaded a couple of clips on a public site on a Thursday nite, and sent the selling dealer the link. Obviously this had an effect, as the dealer contacted me on Friday (they had sent the link to Stuttgart) and arranged to give me a Cayenne on Monday and take the C4S back to look at the engine again. This time they borescoped and found cylinders 5 and 6 scored, then on further measurement with the engine apart, oval bores on 5 and 6. Abused engine by the first owner. Stuttgart sent a zero-time factory re-man engine and a little under 2 weeks later I had a totally renewed engine bay. (They told me that including shipping and labor, the replacement cost approached $25K CDN...about 40% of the car's cost) One big MF bullet dodged. The car has been absolutely sugar sweet since then...I drive it regularly and spiritedly...but I wait for the needle to reach operating temp before putting the hammer down.
So, big decision to make. Business is low, so really I shouldn't stick my neck out for a 2009 version...and the dealer won't CPO my car without me buying another (a sales gimmick to make me trade the 2006 is to have me bring a buyer in with me after telling him/her that the car can be extended CPO for two more years. What to do...hmmmm.

Good thread...enjoyed this one.

I had a friend buy a brand new Golf R and I really wanted her to get an extended warranty and she refused. She got coverage from her insurance company for like $70/year from GEICO (I believe). I remember in years past State Farm would sell it. Maybe the car has to be new to qualify, I dunno.

Call a few Porsche dealers and ask for the F&I guy- you might be surprised. I don't know if Porsche sells their own extended warranties or have a third party administer them for them. With 21K miles on your car, the rates might not be too bad. See how much you save with a $500 or $1,000 deductible. Independent companies that are reputable usually have lower rates or longer terms, such as Fidelity.

I think one thing the Internet does well is support paranoia.

I was downsizing the fleet earlier this year and had a chance to buy a Boxster with 83000 miles on it. The selling dealer said "no warranty. none." I thought about it, chatted with some knowledgeable mechanics, had the computer read to see the engine history and bought.

As modern cars go, Porsches are among the most reliable. In 5000 miles, I've used no oil whatsoever and my big component failure so far was a brake light bulb.

Excellent points brought up. Personally, I've had ONE extended warranty in my life, and that was on the first car I bought from a used car dealer back in 1982 - a 1980 VW Scirocco. I had a water pump fail suddenly and catastrphically while I was on the freeway. By the time I was able to pull over to the side, the damage to the aluminum head was done. I figured the warranty would repair it, but they wouldn't due to the the fine print in the contract that included basically every known primary cause of most downline major malfunctions. So, a water pump failure that caused my head to warp was not covered. I had the car flat bedded out of there and did most of the work myself - at great expense.

Never again will I fall for that trap.

To ease the OP's fears, my 996 has been supremely reliable over 138,000 miles and 12 years. Yes, there have been the occasional issues, but none of them have been out of the realm of normal wear and tear. Coil packs, plugs, Air/Oil separator, alternator, clutch (replaced the IMS with the LN Engineering version while in there. Old one was fine, btw), brake pads and disks, belts, etc. All stuff that ANY car will need eventually.